Novice, confused about saving files

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Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
I open a SCAD file and change a parameter in Customizer. The change is reflected in the display when I click Preview or use F5. If I then save the SCAD, a JSON is automatically created with the same name. But when opened in my text editor I see that does not reflect the change.

I had assumed I could use the JSON as a work around for what strikes me as an odd feature of openSCAD, namely that changes in Customizer are not automatically reflected in the code pane.

Where am I going wrong please?

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
OK, I think I now see the answer is embarrassingly obvious: I need to use Save Preset, yes?

Still seems rather counter intuitive though, that changing a parameter in Customizer does not ripple through the code?

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

drxenocide
As I understand it, Customizer in OpenSCAD was added to model how Customizer on Thingiverse will work without having to:
while(errors){
edit code;
upload code;
save changes;
open in customizer;
}

the way you are supposed to make changes, is by editing the parameters directly, and hit save. Think of Customizer in OpenSCAD as "Thingiverse Customizer Simulator".

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 7:32 AM Terrypin via Discuss <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, I think I now see the answer is embarrassingly obvious: I need to use Save Preset, yes?

Still seems rather counter intuitive though, that changing a parameter in Customizer does not ripple through the code?

Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
Thanks. Guess I’ll have to get into the habit of ignoring Customizer then. Otherwise, keeping track of changes seems potentially messy.

BTW, have I become anonymous as the result of unsubscribing from the mailing list?

Terry

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

khackbarth
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2

It might seem more intuitive if you had the Editor pane open at the time of your save.  When you do a File>Save, you’re saving the contents of the Editor pane.  What you do in the Customizer pane are just temporary overrides to the defaults you set up in the code (Editor).  Yes you can save those overrides as Presets.  You may have hundreds of Presets for a single instance of code.  It’s more useful, and more efficient from a space perspective, to save those presets separately in a .json file.  You can then call them up individually simply by choosing a value from the pulldown list.

 

From: Terrypin <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2021 5:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [OpenSCAD] Re: Novice, confused about saving files

 

OK, I think I now see the answer is embarrassingly obvious: I need to use Save Preset, yes?

Still seems rather counter intuitive though, that changing a parameter in Customizer does not ripple through the code?


Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
Thanks, understood. I’ll switch to the approach you suggest and see how I get on. It’s easy to modify parameters in the editor window when the code is prominently parametrised. But that’s not always the case in the files I’ve downloaded, and changing all instances can then be relatively difficult.

Terry





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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

MichaelAtOz
Administrator
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
OpenSCAD mailing list-2 wrote
BTW, have I become anonymous as the result of unsubscribing from the mailing
list?

Terry
No, there are some mailing systems (or methods* users use?) which have the mail headers different.
(* different reply options?)

e.g. Your quoted message

To: [hidden email]
X-MailFrom: [hidden email]
Reply-To: OpenSCAD general discussion <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OpenSCAD] Re: Novice, confused about saving files
From: Terrypin via Discuss <[hidden email]>                              <<====== this
Cc: Terrypin <[hidden email]>

Nabble then can't match the From:

v's

From: MichaelAtOz <[hidden email]>                                           <<====== this
To: [hidden email]
X-MailFrom: [hidden email]
Reply-To: OpenSCAD general discussion <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OpenSCAD] Re: Complex model - reducing render time

I have noticed primarily yahoo.com aol.com and some others.
Still trying to find a workaround.
OpenSCAD Admin - email* me if you need anything, or if I've done something stupid...
* on the Forum, click on my MichaelAtOz label, there is a link to email me.

Unless specifically shown otherwise above, my contribution is in the Public Domain;
to the extent possible under law, I have waived all copyright and related or neighbouring rights to this work.
Obviously inclusion of works of previous authors is not included in the above.


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Unless specifically shown otherwise above, my contribution is in the Public Domain;
to the extent possible under law, I have waived all copyright and related or neighbouring rights to this work.
Obviously inclusion of works of previous authors is not included in the above.
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

khackbarth
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2

Hi Terry,

 

Don’t ignore the Customizer.  It changed my life as a designer of assistive technology.  I can write one bit of OpenSCAD code that others can use to create hundreds of custom device variants.  If you’re not thinking in terms of customization then, yes you probably can ignore the Customizer.  And free up some screen real-estate 😊.  You may also want to consider doing your coding outside of the Editor pane in a separate application like Notepad++ and watching the changes you make automatically update the display in OpenSCAD when you save the file in Notepad++.

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

From: Terrypin <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2021 6:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [OpenSCAD] Re: Novice, confused about saving files

 

Thanks. Guess I’ll have to get into the habit of ignoring Customizer then. Otherwise, keeping track of changes seems potentially messy.

BTW, have I become anonymous as the result of unsubscribing from the mailing list?

Terry


Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
Thanks Ken. Of course, as a beginner I see Customizer from a different angle to that taken by a developer. I was pleased to be able to modify parameters so easily. But after a succession of these (some followed by actual prints), i wanted to open the latest code for further learning and editing. So I was baffled why the code remained unchanged since I’d downloaded it. And my changes were unavailAble in a SCAD file!

From discussion here I now gather that is by design, although I remain somewhat unclear why.

Also, could you explain what advantage stems from bringing my text editor into the workflow please?

Terry

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
Thanks but I still don’t get it, sorry! I’m using only the forum, so....?

It’s trivial I know (adding my sig fixes the anonymity) but is there really no simple fix to display ‘terrypin’ rather than ‘OpenSCAD mailing list-2’?

Terry

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rew
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

rew
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:57:06AM -0700, Terrypin via Discuss wrote:
> From discussion here I now gather that is by design, although I remain
> somewhat unclear why.

As you (not addressing you, terry) can see, the users don't understand
the customizer and how saving works.

I'd object to writing changes in the original file: That's the original
file and should not be touched.

But allowing the user to save a "customized XXX" would be welcome.
Avoid duplicating data, so the customization file would have:

customization of <location of scad>
parameter1=...

etc.

When loading the parameters need to be matched to the scad file again,
and you need to do something when it doesn't match. But when the scad
is stable, then it becomes easy to save/archive different
configurations of an scad file as "printed on 21-03-2021" or "as sent
to shapeways jan 2 2021" or "uncle john's present 2021".

        Roger.

--
** [hidden email] ** https://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2049110 **
**    Delftechpark 11 2628 XJ  Delft, The Netherlands.  KVK: 27239233    **
f equals m times a. When your f is steady, and your m is going down
your a is going up.  -- Chris Hadfield about flying up the space shuttle.
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
Thanks Roger. Naturally I'd never (knowingly!) over-write the important original file. Just as I avoid that in all other apps (Excel, Word, Cura, my text, image and video editors, etc). But what is the downside of OpenSCAD saving all changes, including those made so conveniently in Customizer? With the familiar warning whenever an existing file is about to be over-written with the same name.

Terry

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

nophead
I personally don't want my source code overwritten. It contains the default values, which never change.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 at 12:32, Terrypin via Discuss <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Roger. Naturally I'd never (knowingly!) over-write the important original file. Just as I avoid that in all other apps (Excel, Word, Cura, my text, image and video editors, etc). But what is the downside of OpenSCAD saving all changes, including those made so conveniently in Customizer? With the familiar warning whenever an existing file is about to be over-written with the same name.

Terry

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rew
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

rew
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 04:32:09AM -0700, Terrypin via Discuss wrote:
> Thanks Roger. Naturally I'd never (knowingly!) over-write the important
> original file.

Data duplication in whatever form is bad. Leads to all sorts of bad
stuff.

There should be as little "double data" as possible.

Computing environment example: 35 years ago as a young programmer I
took the easy way out: I could have added a parameter to a function
that would make it do a slight variation of what it was supposed to
do. Instead I copied the function and just changed what needed to be
changed. That bit me in the behind when a bug was found in the common
code between those now-two routines. Twice. (bug found and fixed, then
2 weeks later: Didn't I fix this bug before? Same symptoms!)

"real world" example:

I've moved my company. So I notified the bank: I've moved, this is the
new address.

All is fine I get the statements at the new address and
everything. Then... (2.5 years after the move!) I notice my creditcard
has expired. When I call them, it turns out the creditcard division is
"separate enough from the bank" to have their own
addresses-database. Not updated from the main bank-database.They
probably mailed me the new card at the old address. That card is still
floating around somewhere.

So you saving the whole file under a new name causes data duplication:
A bug that you might find in the original will now need fixing is all
the variants you've made!

Nop head has explained why overwriting the defaults in the main source
file is not a good idea.

        Roger.

--
** [hidden email] ** https://www.BitWizard.nl/ ** +31-15-2049110 **
**    Delftechpark 11 2628 XJ  Delft, The Netherlands.  KVK: 27239233    **
f equals m times a. When your f is steady, and your m is going down
your a is going up.  -- Chris Hadfield about flying up the space shuttle.
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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

Roel Vanhout
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
I'm a bit puzzled by this whole conversation. Maybe it's because I'm a software developer, but the idea that the Customizer would make changes that get applied and saved to/with the source code is completely foreign to me. My mental model is: the GUI opens the source file, parses it and builds an in-memory AST. The Customizer is a sort of backdoor into this, i.e. anything you change there, is applied to specific nodes in the AST. Then the model is rendered and that is what you see. But, if you would want to save the AST with the changes applied, you would have to keep a bunch of information that is (I presume, I never looked at OpenSCAD source code) lost to the software after parsing (like comments and whitespace). 'Compiling' source code is a one-way street. Yes, there are IDE's that try to intelligently help you with inserting code, sometimes based on information derived from compiling the source; but not by serializing a modified abstract representation of that code. The Customizer is not a tool that edits source code; it's a convenient way of building simple GUI's for parametric models (at least, this is how I as a relatively novice user see it, not trying to claim universal truths here).

Again, I'm probably brain damaged by being a developer for 20 years to the point where I am no longer able to really empathize with the way others see source code or some other things in software in general, but maybe it would help you to not see the Customizer as a tool to 'edit' models, but only as one to 'customize' existing models. In this model it makes much more sense to have separate 'presets' that are distinct from the source code itself.

cheers

Roel


PS on the other topic of this thread - for me the big advantages of using an external editor are 1) that I can use the more powerful editor I use for everything else to also edit OpenSCAD models/source code, and 2) I can have that editor on another monitor and have more preview screen real estate for the OpenSCAD GUI on another monitor.


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 1:32 PM Terrypin via Discuss <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Roger. Naturally I'd never (knowingly!) over-write the important original file. Just as I avoid that in all other apps (Excel, Word, Cura, my text, image and video editors, etc). But what is the downside of OpenSCAD saving all changes, including those made so conveniently in Customizer? With the familiar warning whenever an existing file is about to be over-written with the same name.

Terry

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
On 4/12/2021 1:14 AM, Terrypin via Discuss wrote:
Thanks but I still don’t get it, sorry! I’m using only the forum, so....?

It’s trivial I know (adding my sig fixes the anonymity) but is there really no simple fix to display ‘terrypin’ rather than ‘OpenSCAD mailing list-2’?

I don't know about the forum, but on the mailing list you come through as "Terrypin via Discuss", with a CC of "Terrypin [hidden email]".

(And the Reply-To is set to the mailing list... evil, evil, evil.)


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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by Roel Vanhout
On 4/12/2021 5:10 AM, Roel Vanhout wrote:
[ AST ]

I don't think there's any chance that a beginner will think of it in terms of the AST.

The Customizer is not a tool that edits source code; it's a convenient way of building simple GUI's for parametric models
[... ]
but maybe it would help you to not see the Customizer as a tool to 'edit' models, but only as one to 'customize' existing models. In this model it makes much more sense to have separate 'presets' that are distinct from the source code itself.

Yes, I think those are the right mental model.

PS on the other topic of this thread - for me the big advantages of using an external editor are [...] 2) I can have that editor on another monitor and have more preview screen real estate for the OpenSCAD GUI on another monitor.

Edit / Preferences / Advanced, check "Enable undocking of Editor and Console to separate windows".  If you have a lot of screen real estate, it's the only way to fly.


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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

MichaelAtOz
Administrator
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2

Thanks for more clues.

 

This may be the Mailing-list DMARC mitigation.

I've changed the option, to wrap the message, added a message '<Wrapped message - DMARC mitigation>'.

 

We'll see with your next post.

 

BTW it is never only on the Forum, Forum proto-posts go to the Mailing-list, then back to the Forum to then be posted there.

 


From: Terrypin via Discuss [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:14
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Terrypin
Subject: [OpenSCAD] Re: Novice, confused about saving files

 

Thanks but I still don’t get it, sorry! I’m using only the forum, so....?

It’s trivial I know (adding my sig fixes the anonymity) but is there really no simple fix to display ‘terrypin’ rather than ‘OpenSCAD mailing list-2’?

Terry


Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


Virus-free. www.avg.com

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
In reply to this post by Roel Vanhout
<Wrapped message - DMARC mitigation>
OK, I'm clearly on my own about this then. So I'll defer to the experts rather than press my case further!

However I'd appreciate suggestions on how to overcome the minor frustration that prompted this thread. Six weeks into this hobby I'm working with several types of SCAD file and workflow differs between them. Files for simple learning exercises are irrelevant in the present context. If there are any parameters, or I add them, I don't use Customizer but edit directly.

There are also more complex models that I'm impatient to use to get stuff printed, even before fully understanding the code. Take the current example of nophead's 'Polygonal hole test'. I downloaded the SCAD from https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6118 to
C:\Users\terry\Dropbox\3D Printer\PROJECTS\Polygonal_hole_test\nophead original\polyholes.scad
and opened it in OpenSCAD then gave it the new name and location of
C:\Users\terry\Dropbox\3D Printer\PROJECTS\Polygonal_hole_test\polyholes-e1.stl
where the '-e1' suffix indicates my first edit.

It's not parameterised so I customised it by editing the code as shown. (This was to get a much smaller 'test template', as I mainly want holes for the lids of small project cases, with size M2, M3 or M4 screws/bolts.)

I then saved the STL as polyholes-e1.scad, opened that in Cura for slicing, where I saved an image including settings as polyholes-e1.jpg, and then saved the result as polyholes-e1.gcode and printed it.

All four file types have identical names for fast access.

Suppose I then decided that I'd like to add a seventh hole. I could simply open my latest edit and proceed to make that further change.

If the model had been parametrised, at this stage of my ignorance I might have impatiently sacrificed the learning opportunity and used the Customizer. But that would not have allowed me to save an appropriately named new SCAD file. My intuitive workflow - one I'm used to in just about every other application, such as those I listed earlier - would then be broken.

Terry (who doesn't know an AST from an elbow! )

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Re: Novice, confused about saving files

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
<Wrapped message - DMARC mitigation>
Thanks Michael, but that doesn’t seem to have worked.

BTW, I first tried sending this reply using the ‘Reply to author’ option, but that resulted in an ‘invalid’ email returned.

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