request center==centre

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request center==centre

codifies
I don't suppose it would be possible to have both spellings being valid ?

the different spelling of centre keeps tripping me up, I don't think it
should be changed but rather that both should be recognised as being the
same, maybe some kind of preprocessor that changes all the centres to
centers....


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Re: request center==centre

tp3
On 03/02/2018 11:28 PM, Chris Camacho wrote:
> I don't suppose it would be possible to have both
> spellings being valid ?
>
For the core language, I think the answer should be
no, not possible.

However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
might be possible to implement something like this
on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
the normalized spelling as understood by the core
interpreter.

ciao,
   Torsten.

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Re: request center==centre

Troberg
> However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
might be possible to implement something like this
on the GUI level.

If we eventually get intellisense, this'll be a non-problem.



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Re: request center==centre

MichaelAtOz
Administrator
Troberg wrote
> If we eventually get intellisense, this'll be a non-problem.

Use an  external editor
<https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual/Using_an_external_Editor_with_OpenSCAD>
, I use Notepad++ with autocomplete & syntax highlighting.





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Re: request center==centre

RobWLakes
In reply to this post by tp3
This is the way of doom, as once this is accepted, why not have all
miss-spellings accommodated auto-magically by the interpreter and just
throw in a guess-o-meter for measurements as well to keep everyone happy.

Center is a mathematical concept of the equidistant point on a straight
line between two points.

Centre is a place that houses services in a central area in community.

Not too difficult to discriminate between?

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but really, they do not have the same
meaning.  We have to accept "color" over here in good ol' Australia
instead of our time  hono(u)red spelling of "colour", in all our
programming languages, and as we don't write the languages, why should
we expect that exception? Shouldn't we be grateful just to be able to
use the software? Even though color/colour are accepted as having the
same meaning, or should I be saying "there own meaning"????

Cheers, Rob


On 03/03/18 09:38, Torsten Paul wrote:

> On 03/02/2018 11:28 PM, Chris Camacho wrote:
>> I don't suppose it would be possible to have both
>> spellings being valid ?
>>
> For the core language, I think the answer should be
> no, not possible.
>
> However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
> might be possible to implement something like this
> on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
> the normalized spelling as understood by the core
> interpreter.
>
> ciao,
>   Torsten.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
>


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Re: request center==centre

codifies

from the oxford English dictionary


   centre^1


     noun

1The point that is equally distant from every point on the circumference of a circle or sphere.


I could equally pedantically call center a misspelling which I made pains NOT to do....

kindly don't be so racist about my native language ...


On 07/03/18 08:47, Rob Ward wrote:
This is the way of doom, as once this is accepted, why not have all miss-spellings accommodated auto-magically by the interpreter and just throw in a guess-o-meter for measurements as well to keep everyone happy.

Center is a mathematical concept of the equidistant point on a straight line between two points.

Centre is a place that houses services in a central area in community.

Not too difficult to discriminate between?

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but really, they do not have the same meaning.  We have to accept "color" over here in good ol' Australia instead of our time  hono(u)red spelling of "colour", in all our programming languages, and as we don't write the languages, why should we expect that exception? Shouldn't we be grateful just to be able to use the software? Even though color/colour are accepted as having the same meaning, or should I be saying "there own meaning"????

Cheers, Rob


On 03/03/18 09:38, Torsten Paul wrote:
On 03/02/2018 11:28 PM, Chris Camacho wrote:
I don't suppose it would be possible to have both
spellings being valid ?

For the core language, I think the answer should be
no, not possible.

However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
might be possible to implement something like this
on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
the normalized spelling as understood by the core
interpreter.

ciao,
  Torsten.

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Re: request center==centre

RobWLakes

I hoped not offend anybody, and don't believe I referenced any country or personal origin apart from my own, and the common usage of the words "center/centre" in Australia.  What ever way my response can be construed, look at the https://www.london-nano.com/ which is "The London Centre for Nanotechnology", not "center", as an example. Even if they can have identical meaning, at least "center" I believe is not ambiguous.

Otherwise, I will not add fuel to a spelling flame wars on this very civil forum, so I am not contributing any further on this topic, I will happily let others be the judge.

Cheers, Rob


On 07/03/18 19:52, Chris Camacho wrote:

from the oxford English dictionary


   centre^1


     noun

1The point that is equally distant from every point on the circumference of a circle or sphere.


I could equally pedantically call center a misspelling which I made pains NOT to do....

kindly don't be so racist about my native language ...


On 07/03/18 08:47, Rob Ward wrote:
This is the way of doom, as once this is accepted, why not have all miss-spellings accommodated auto-magically by the interpreter and just throw in a guess-o-meter for measurements as well to keep everyone happy.

Center is a mathematical concept of the equidistant point on a straight line between two points.

Centre is a place that houses services in a central area in community.

Not too difficult to discriminate between?

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but really, they do not have the same meaning.  We have to accept "color" over here in good ol' Australia instead of our time  hono(u)red spelling of "colour", in all our programming languages, and as we don't write the languages, why should we expect that exception? Shouldn't we be grateful just to be able to use the software? Even though color/colour are accepted as having the same meaning, or should I be saying "there own meaning"????

Cheers, Rob


On 03/03/18 09:38, Torsten Paul wrote:
On 03/02/2018 11:28 PM, Chris Camacho wrote:
I don't suppose it would be possible to have both
spellings being valid ?

For the core language, I think the answer should be
no, not possible.

However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
might be possible to implement something like this
on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
the normalized spelling as understood by the core
interpreter.

ciao,
  Torsten.

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Ubuntu Mate - A great OS


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Re: request center==centre

alexgibson

From the opposite side of the planet in the UK, I would also be very pleased to see a version of OpenSCAD which treated ‘centre’ and ‘center’ as equally valid.  As a native English speaker, it’s frustrating when I accidentally spell it the ‘wrong’ way and have to correct… 

I think this is different from, for example, translating the language to French or Mandarin, which would be out of scope.

 

Cheers,

 

Alex Gibson

 

+44 7813 810 765    @alexgibson3d    37 Royal Avenue, Reading RG31 4UR

 

admg consulting

 

edumaker limited

 

·         Project management

·         Operations & Process improvement

·         3D Printing

 

From: Discuss [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rob Ward
Sent: 07 March 2018 09:54
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] request center==centre

 

I hoped not offend anybody, and don't believe I referenced any country or personal origin apart from my own, and the common usage of the words "center/centre" in Australia.  What ever way my response can be construed, look at the https://www.london-nano.com/ which is "The London Centre for Nanotechnology", not "center", as an example. Even if they can have identical meaning, at least "center" I believe is not ambiguous.

Otherwise, I will not add fuel to a spelling flame wars on this very civil forum, so I am not contributing any further on this topic, I will happily let others be the judge.

Cheers, Rob

 

On 07/03/18 19:52, Chris Camacho wrote:

from the oxford English dictionary


   centre^1


     noun

1The point that is equally distant from every point on the circumference of a circle or sphere.


I could equally pedantically call center a misspelling which I made pains NOT to do....

kindly don't be so racist about my native language ...

 

On 07/03/18 08:47, Rob Ward wrote:

This is the way of doom, as once this is accepted, why not have all miss-spellings accommodated auto-magically by the interpreter and just throw in a guess-o-meter for measurements as well to keep everyone happy.

Center is a mathematical concept of the equidistant point on a straight line between two points.

Centre is a place that houses services in a central area in community.

Not too difficult to discriminate between?

Sorry to sound sarcastic, but really, they do not have the same meaning.  We have to accept "color" over here in good ol' Australia instead of our time  hono(u)red spelling of "colour", in all our programming languages, and as we don't write the languages, why should we expect that exception? Shouldn't we be grateful just to be able to use the software? Even though color/colour are accepted as having the same meaning, or should I be saying "there own meaning"????

Cheers, Rob


On 03/03/18 09:38, Torsten Paul wrote:

On 03/02/2018 11:28 PM, Chris Camacho wrote:

I don't suppose it would be possible to have both
spellings being valid ?

For the core language, I think the answer should be
no, not possible.

However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
might be possible to implement something like this
on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
the normalized spelling as understood by the core
interpreter.

ciao,
  Torsten.

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Re: request center==centre

alexgibson
Yes, I agree.

A quick look at the cheat sheet shows only 2-3 changes needed:

color("colorname",alpha)   ==   colour("colourname",alpha)

cube([width,depth,height], center)  ==  cube([width,depth,height], centre)

Is anyone aware of any others?

I find it extremely unlikely anyone would have made themselves a clashing module name like 'centre', 'colour' or 'colourname'  so the chances of this breaking anybody's code seem to me slim to none, and a simple text search and replace would fix the code in that rare case.  

So can it be done, lovely developers, please?


Alex Gibson

+44 7813 810 765    @alexgibson3d    37 Royal Avenue, Reading RG31 4UR

admg consulting

edumaker limited

• Project management
• Operations & Process improvement
• 3D Printing


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Cox [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 07 March 2018 12:32
To: Alex Gibson
Cc: OpenSCAD general discussion; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] request center==centre

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:05:22 -0000
"Alex Gibson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >From the opposite side of the planet in the UK, I would also be very pleased to see a version of OpenSCAD which treated ‘centre’ and ‘center’ as equally valid.  As a native English speaker, it’s frustrating when I accidentally spell it the ‘wrong’ way and have to correct…    
>

Agreed - especially as there is no trivial way to add the other spelling as an equvialent as you can say in C. color/colour and center/centre would be good to have.

I don't think going beyond that makes sense because you then have to tokenize and translate, and the tokenisation is complicated because you might have the letters circle in a french program as a variable and when you move it to Englis and edit then it goes invalid. People did in fact try and create nationalised versions of languages like fortran and algol.
They were not a great success.

Alan


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Re: request center==centre

doug.moen
"Oxford spelling" is a precise international standard for English spelling. It's used by the ISO and CIE (international technical standards organizations), and many other international organizations. It's also supported by the X11/SVG/web colour-name standard used in OpenSCAD. In OpenSCAD, you can write either color("grey") or color("gray") -- the former is Oxford spelling, the latter is American spelling.

OpenSCAD has an international user base. It's not unreasonable to update the core language to support Oxford spelling for built-in modules and named parameters. "color/colour" and "center/centre" are the only cases I can find.

Accepting "centre" as an alias for "center" in square, cube, cylinder, and linear_extrude and surface will not cause name conflicts with user defined variables, functions or modules.

Adding a new built-in module is safe, because user-defined modules take precedence over built-in modules of the same name. Existing scripts that define a "colour" module and work in version N of OpenSCAD will continue to work if version N+1 adds a built-in "colour" module.



On 7 March 2018 at 07:57, Alex Gibson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, I agree.

A quick look at the cheat sheet shows only 2-3 changes needed:

color("colorname",alpha)   ==   colour("colourname",alpha)

cube([width,depth,height], center)  ==  cube([width,depth,height], centre)

Is anyone aware of any others?

I find it extremely unlikely anyone would have made themselves a clashing module name like 'centre', 'colour' or 'colourname'  so the chances of this breaking anybody's code seem to me slim to none, and a simple text search and replace would fix the code in that rare case.

So can it be done, lovely developers, please?


Alex Gibson

<a href="tel:%2B44%207813%20810%20765" value="+447813810765">+44 7813 810 765    @alexgibson3d    37 Royal Avenue, Reading RG31 4UR

admg consulting

edumaker limited

• Project management
• Operations & Process improvement
• 3D Printing


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Cox [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 07 March 2018 12:32
To: Alex Gibson
Cc: OpenSCAD general discussion; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] request center==centre

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 10:05:22 -0000
"Alex Gibson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >From the opposite side of the planet in the UK, I would also be very pleased to see a version of OpenSCAD which treated ‘centre’ and ‘center’ as equally valid.  As a native English speaker, it’s frustrating when I accidentally spell it the ‘wrong’ way and have to correct…
>

Agreed - especially as there is no trivial way to add the other spelling as an equvialent as you can say in C. color/colour and center/centre would be good to have.

I don't think going beyond that makes sense because you then have to tokenize and translate, and the tokenisation is complicated because you might have the letters circle in a french program as a variable and when you move it to Englis and edit then it goes invalid. People did in fact try and create nationalised versions of languages like fortran and algol.
They were not a great success.

Alan


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Re: request center==centre

runsun
Is there any other language, like c/c++, python, javascript... etc --- which
I believe are all very or even more "international" --- allow this variation
of spelling ?



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Re: request center==centre

codifies
If Jules Verne had thought like that he would never have gone to the
moon in 1865 ....

On 07/03/18 17:07, runsun wrote:

> Is there any other language, like c/c++, python, javascript... etc --- which
> I believe are all very or even more "international" --- allow this variation
> of spelling ?
>
>
>
> -----
>
> $  Runsun Pan, PhD $ libs: scadx , doctest , faces ( git ), offline doc ( git ), runscad.py ( 2 , git ), editor of choice: CudaText  ( OpenSCAD lexer );&nbsp;$ Tips ;&nbsp;$ Snippets
>
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Re: request center==centre

doug.moen
In reply to this post by runsun
C++ lets you write either 'a && b' or 'a and b', same for '||' and 'or', etc, and this is for 'international' reasons, for countries where the '&' and '|' characters are not on the keyboard. In Scheme, the built-in function 'call-with-current-continuation' has an alternate spelling 'call/cc' which is shorter. The C language has a profusion of variant spellings for built in types. For example, 'short', 'short int', 'signed short int' and 'signed short' are all variant spellings of the same type.

On 7 March 2018 at 12:07, runsun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is there any other language, like c/c++, python, javascript... etc --- which
I believe are all very or even more "international" --- allow this variation
of spelling ?



-----

$  Runsun Pan, PhD $ libs: scadx , doctest , faces ( git ), offline doc ( git ), runscad.py ( 2 , git ), editor of choice: CudaText  ( OpenSCAD lexer );&nbsp;$ Tips ;&nbsp;$ Snippets

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Re: request center==centre

MichaelPFrey
In reply to this post by tp3
Given how heated the discussion just got, I would like to re-center on
the technical side:

Am 02.03.2018 um 23:38 schrieb Torsten Paul:

> ....
> For the core language, I think the answer should be
> no, not possible.
>
> However if someone has an idea and enough time, it
> might be possible to implement something like this
> on the GUI level. Files should always be saved in
> the normalized spelling as understood by the core
> interpreter.
>
> ciao,
>   Torsten.
This and issue 2314 combined sound the me like things, that could in
theory be resolved by a "c preprocessor"  or something a like (e.g. GPP
the "general-purpose preprocessor with customizable syntax").
If the user does not want to always write the same replacement
definitions, the user could make an include.

Off-course, integrating it would be hard (for e.g. error reporting), but
it is the most generalized solution.
A "middle ground" that we just support a subset of a general preprocessor.
Even a basic #DEFINE would cover the center/centre conflict:
#DEFINE centre center

Note that #DEFINE is not conflicting with the # modifier, as the define
is processed before any actual language interpretation.

I know that implementing that is hard (error reporting, test case,
corner case, "yet an other parser" ...), but it would give a lot of
power to openscad users.

WIth kind regards,
Michael Frey


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Re: request center==centre

cacb
On 2018-03-07 18:57, Michael Frey wrote:
> Given how heated the discussion just got, I would like to re-center on
> the technical side:

I am coming from a country of only 5 million with two official language
variants. We have slightly different spellings of the country name on
opposite sides of some bank notes (Norge/Noreg) :-)

If you go down this road I think it will never end. However if you
*really* want to try you could perhaps
let cube(100,center=true) take the alternative forms
cube(100,align='center') / cube(100,align='centre').

But then people might try things like cube(100,align='top') and expect
something meaningful.

Carsten Arnholm

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Re: request center==centre

runsun
In reply to this post by doug.moen
From my point of view, all those reasons provided are far from "different
spellings". They are either different formats, different usages, or under
circumstances that there's no other way. They are all legitimate reasons and
none of them is based on "some users can't get used to it".


doug.moen wrote
> C++ lets you write either 'a && b' or 'a and b', same for '||' and 'or',
> etc, and this is for 'international' reasons, for countries where the '&'
> and '|' characters are not on the keyboard. In Scheme, the built-in
> function 'call-with-current-continuation' has an alternate spelling
> 'call/cc' which is shorter. The C language has a profusion of variant
> spellings for built in types. For example, 'short', 'short int', 'signed
> short int' and 'signed short' are all variant spellings of the same type.





-----

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Re: request center==centre

boxcarmib
In reply to this post by cacb
Just in case someone’s counting, my preference would be to leave things as they are. All programming languages have their little idiosyncrasies that trip the programmer up from time to time and I’d continue to use OpenSCAD even if centre/center were spelled “centaur”, and I don’t personally feel slighted or inconvenience by the syntax conventions of any particular language. And if we go down this path, shouldn’t we also be concerned about the semantics of other items… shouldn’t we rebrand “cube()” as “cuboid()” and “square()” as “rectangle()”?
I may be biased by virtue of being Canadian, where we not only have two official languages but where our English is in an ongoing skirmish with both British and American spellings. Here, “centre” and “center” is just one example of words that can be spelled either way… we’ve got “color” and “colour” and “sympathize” and “sympathise”, “fulfill” and “fulfil” and a host of others. Can't we simply accept the fact that OpenSCAD has a mixed cultural heritage and leave it at that? I think the spelling of center/centre is trivial when compared to issues as variable scope, late binding and a host of other functional issues that remind OpenSCAD programmers that they're not in Kansas anymore and that regardless of how certain reserved words are spelled, this isn’t c.

> On Mar 7, 2018, at 10:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> On 2018-03-07 18:57, Michael Frey wrote:
>> Given how heated the discussion just got, I would like to re-center on
>> the technical side:
>
> I am coming from a country of only 5 million with two official language variants. We have slightly different spellings of the country name on opposite sides of some bank notes (Norge/Noreg) :-)
>
> If you go down this road I think it will never end. However if you *really* want to try you could perhaps
> let cube(100,center=true) take the alternative forms cube(100,align='center') / cube(100,align='centre').
>
> But then people might try things like cube(100,align='top') and expect something meaningful.
>
> Carsten Arnholm
>
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Re: request center==centre

cacb
On 2018-03-07 19:53, Hugo Jackson wrote:
> And if we go down this path,
> shouldn’t we also be concerned about the semantics of other items…

I think you get my point :-)

> shouldn’t we rebrand “cube()” as “cuboid()”
https://github.com/arnholm/xcsg/wiki/cube
https://github.com/arnholm/xcsg/wiki/cuboid

> and “square()” as “rectangle()”?
https://github.com/arnholm/xcsg/wiki/square
https://github.com/arnholm/xcsg/wiki/rectangle

It never really ends.

Carsten Arnholm

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Re: request center==centre

alexgibson
In reply to this post by runsun
@runsun - it's not that I can't 'get used to it' - but that it has a
constant, dragging, cognitive switching cost for a large number of users.  I
have written tens of thousands of lines of OpenSCAD, normally writing
'center' without a second thought - but because it is an English word, and
I'm a native English speaker, from the other half for whom 'centre' is
correct, it's just a regular irritant that disturbs the flow from time to
time.  Clearly several people have raised this issue independently over
time, and it strikes me that it always seems to get struck down on
principle, and with an element of cultural chauvinism.  I'm not saying one
variant is correct and the other isn't  - but for the sake of fewer
exceptions than we can list on one hand, why not make this change?

@Carsten - Hvor bor du i Norge / Norge / North Dakota (!)? Snakker du
Nynorsk eller Bokmål? Jeg er ikke Språkrådet, men jeg tror at sammen vi kan
enes om et Riksmål for OpenSCAD!

Alex Gibson

+44 7813 810 765    @alexgibson3d    37 Royal Avenue, Reading RG31 4UR

admg consulting

edumaker limited

• Project management
• Operations & Process improvement
• 3D Printing


-----Original Message-----
From: Discuss [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
runsun
Sent: 07 March 2018 18:47
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] request center==centre

From my point of view, all those reasons provided are far from "different
spellings". They are either different formats, different usages, or under
circumstances that there's no other way. They are all legitimate reasons and
none of them is based on "some users can't get used to it".


doug.moen wrote
> C++ lets you write either 'a && b' or 'a and b', same for '||' and
> C++ 'or',
> etc, and this is for 'international' reasons, for countries where the '&'
> and '|' characters are not on the keyboard. In Scheme, the built-in
> function 'call-with-current-continuation' has an alternate spelling
> 'call/cc' which is shorter. The C language has a profusion of variant
> spellings for built in types. For example, 'short', 'short int',
> 'signed short int' and 'signed short' are all variant spellings of the
same type.





-----

$  Runsun Pan, PhD $ libs: scadx , doctest , faces ( git ), offline doc (
git ), runscad.py ( 2 , git ), editor of choice: CudaText  ( OpenSCAD lexer
);&nbsp;$ Tips ;&nbsp;$ Snippets

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Re: request center==centre

runsun
In reply to this post by MichaelPFrey
I've been hoping that we could have something like:

#DEFINE echo=off

that makes it easier to generate doc automatically.


MichaelPFrey wrote
> #DEFINE centre center





-----

$  Runsun Pan, PhD $ libs: scadx , doctest , faces ( git ), offline doc ( git ), runscad.py ( 2 , git ), editor of choice: CudaText  ( OpenSCAD lexer );&nbsp;$ Tips ;&nbsp;$ Snippets

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$ Runsun Pan, PhD
$ libs: scadx, doctest, faces(git), offline doc(git), runscad.py(2,git), editor of choice: CudaText ( OpenSCAD lexer); $ Tips; $ Snippets
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