graphics cards for opengl?

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graphics cards for opengl?

wmartin
Hi,
Any opinions on what "reasonable cost" graphics cards would be good for
openSCAD & FreeCAD use? Difference between
gaming cards & workstation grade cards?

Thanks,
Bill M.

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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

MichaelAtOz
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Oh good. I was about to ask the same.
Particularly which manufacturer/type has experienced bad driver issues. (and hence to be avoided)
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

QuackingPlums
As someone who at one point upgraded my gaming PC roughly every year, I have used both ATI/AMD and nVIDIA cards extensively and I usually push them to their limits - sometimes beyond their limits, to my regret (and expense!).

My purely subjective opinion is that nVIDIA is marginally more reliable from a driver point of view than ATI (there was a glimmer of hope when AMD took over but that hasn't really materialised) but I'm not convinced that you'd ever see this if you're just using OpenSCAD.

I am currently looking at building a new games PC right now and the bang-per-buck of the current flagship AMD cards is difficult to ignore, but the issues I hear that are plaguing some owners are the same that have always plagued me with ATI/AMD cards, which puts me off a little bit. Whilst a pair of flagship nVIDIA cards is a stupidly expensive option, the potential for reduced downtime almost justifies the cost. Almost.

In any case, my recommendation is to always use the official manufacturer's drivers rather than any 'branded' versions that come with the cards themselves, as they tend to be more stable and contain less bloatware. They're also usually more recent as it takes time for the OEMs to re-badge and apply branding.

Some card manufacturers offer lifetime/extended warranties, which may sway your decision.
 
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

wmartin
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
Some interesting reading here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-workstation-graphics-card,3493-32.html
It's not strictly about workstation cards, some bit of comparing with
gaming cards as well.
-bill

On 12/09/2014 05:04 PM, MichaelAtOz wrote:

> Oh good. I was about to ask the same.
> Particularly which manufacturer/type has experienced bad driver issues. (and
> hence to be avoided)
>
>
>
> -----
> Unless specifically shown otherwise above, my contribution is in the Public Domain; To the extent possible under law, I have waived all copyright and related or neighbouring rights to this work. This work is published globally via the internet. :) Inclusion of works of previous authors is not included in the above.
>
> The TPP is no simple “trade agreement.”   Fight it! http://www.ourfairdeal.org/
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/graphics-cards-for-opengl-tp10464p10465.html
> Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Bananapeel
In reply to this post by wmartin
In what way do you feel limited by your current hardware, and what do you currently have?
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

wmartin
Ah, well, I don't have a gpu card at all right now. Just the Intel
graphics that came with the chipset, a core 2 duo E8500 if memory
serves. This system is not really deserving of spending much on
upgrades, so I'm looking to see what I should be looking for in the near
future.

On 12/10/2014 04:15 PM, Bananapeel wrote:

> In what way do you feel limited by your current hardware, and what do you
> currently have?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/graphics-cards-for-opengl-tp10464p10479.html
> Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>


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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

MichaelAtOz
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In reply to this post by Bananapeel
Bananapeel wrote
In what way do you feel limited by your current hardware, and what do you currently have?
And I have a 2.53Ghz dual core CPU and NVIDIA ION graphics.
The F5 preview is slow for complex models, getting to unusable on highly complex ones. (I have yet to test 2014.12.09 changes)

I have a newer system I'm looking to migrate to, 16GB, faster Quad core, currently with Intel integrated graphics, and an empty slot for a graphics card.
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

tjhowse
Unless OpenSCAD implements CUDA, OpenCL, or another GPU-accelerated
compute tech, you won't see any difference between ATI and nVidia as
far as OpenSCAD rendering or display performance is concerned.
nVidia's linux drivers are, apparently, far better under linux. ATI's
drivers have always been pretty shitty even under Windows, speaking as
someone who has bought exclusively ATI cards for his gaming computer
for the last decade.

I'd see if you're happy with the performance of the embedded intel
graphics, but get a motherboard with a PCIex16 slot so you have the
option of putting in a separate video card later if you want.

On 11 December 2014 at 11:25, MichaelAtOz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bananapeel wrote
>> In what way do you feel limited by your current hardware, and what do you
>> currently have?
>
> And I have a 2.53Ghz dual core CPU and NVIDIA ION graphics.
> The F5 preview is slow for complex models, getting to unusable on highly
> complex ones. (I have yet to test 2014.12.09 changes)
>
> I have a newer system I'm looking to migrate to, 16GB, faster Quad core,
> currently with Intel integrated graphics, and an empty slot for a graphics
> card.
>
>
>
> -----
> Unless specifically shown otherwise above, my contribution is in the Public Domain; To the extent possible under law, I have waived all copyright and related or neighbouring rights to this work. This work is published globally via the internet. :) Inclusion of works of previous authors is not included in the above.
>
> The TPP is no simple “trade agreement.”   Fight it! http://www.ourfairdeal.org/
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/graphics-cards-for-opengl-tp10464p10481.html
> Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Chow Loong Jin
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 03:25:18PM +1000, tjhowse wrote:
> Unless OpenSCAD implements CUDA, OpenCL, or another GPU-accelerated
> compute tech, you won't see any difference between ATI and nVidia as
> far as OpenSCAD rendering or display performance is concerned.
> [....]

I noticed that CGAL and OpenCSG both have a dependency on libGL, so they do use
OpenGL for something or other.

OpenSCAD itself appears to use QtOpenGL, presumably for rendering the viewport.

--
Kind regards,
Loong Jin

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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Scalpel78
For running both OpenSCAD and FreeCAD you shouldn't really need to get a high-end videocard.

On my stationary I've got a quad-processor, 16GB ram and a ATI HD 6570 videocard. I could probably run Battlefield without problems, but a fairly simple model in OpenSCAD is pretty choppy when rotating.

Even on my laptop I can run complex simulations in Chrome and WebGL (f.ex http://aleksandarrodic.com/p/jellyfish/) that are just silky smooth, while rotating a cube in OpenSCAD is a choppy experience. Yes, sure, it's probably a different technology, but the point is that the weakest link here isn't the graphics card or the drivers, but OpenSCAD itself. Hopefully this will become better if OpenSCAD switches over to newer OpenGL technology. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that someone was working on that?
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Bananapeel
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
MichaelAtOz:
Simply upgrading to the integrated graphics in the latest intel processors  (haswell i3/5/7 4xxx) should give you a very significant increase in graphics performance.

wmartin will very likely see the same performance increase.

When it comes to graphics cards it appears to me like more expensive is better. You get what you pay for. Note that the cheaper ones give less performance than the integrated graphics in haswell processors.
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

MichaelAtOz
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There were a bunch of OpenSCAD issues with Intel graphics some time ago, are they still problematic?
Admin - email* me if you need anything,
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tp3
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

tp3
In reply to this post by Scalpel78
Hi!

> Even on my laptop I can run complex simulations in Chrome and WebGL (f.ex
> http://aleksandarrodic.com/p/jellyfish/) that are just silky smooth, while
> rotating a cube in OpenSCAD is a choppy experience. Yes, sure, it's probably
> a different technology, but the point is that the weakest link here isn't
> the graphics card or the drivers, but OpenSCAD itself. Hopefully this will
>
Yes, currently there's pretty much nothing to gain in terms of performance
for OpenSCAD from a high-end graphics card. The only issue is bad OpenGL
drivers that produce wrong renders or even crashes.
On Linux both the nouveau and the proprietary nvidia driver seem to work
fine.

> become better if OpenSCAD switches over to newer OpenGL technology. I think
> I saw it mentioned somewhere that someone was working on that?
>
Mentioned yes:
https://github.com/openscad/openscad/wiki/Project%3A-Improve-OpenGL-rendering

As far as I know, there is nobody actively working on that yet. I do have
some prototyping stuff in a separate application, but nothing specific for
OpenSCAD yet.

ciao,
  Torsten.

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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Scalpel78
Perhaps it would be a good idea to reach out to the OpenGL community? Maybe someone there thinks this would be a fun project to help with?

The forum at OpenGL (https://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/) seems to be lively. I'm sure someone there could be motivated by a well-written forumpost where we explain what kind of challenges OpenSCAD has currently with OpenGL.
tp3
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

tp3
In reply to this post by wmartin
> The forum at OpenGL (https://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/) seems to be
> lively. I'm sure someone there could be motivated by a well-written
> forumpost where we explain what kind of challenges OpenSCAD has currently
> with OpenGL.
>
I think the challenges are mostly on OpenSCAD side, like consolidating
all the scattered places where model render is happening.

One of the biggest questions is if there's a nice abstraction layer for
the OpenGL stuff. While there are a number of projects doing that, e.g.
OpenSceneGraph, Ogre, Irrlicht, ... but most tend to be more targeted
at games which does not fit too nicely with OpenSCAD. OpenSceneGraph
might be a reasonable choice, but it's a huge project in itself, so it
could be a challenge to integrate. It is available in MXE which we use
for Windows builds, so that's a big plus.

Actually the newly released Qt5.4 does bring some more relatively low
level OpenGL abstractions, so maybe that's all we need.

Still an engine that supports things like Camera, 3D interactions and
ideally even with support for GLES2 would help a lot.

ciao,
Torsten.

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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

wmartin
Anyone know what MeshLab uses? It seems to do a great job of rotating, etc, even with my old hardware.
-bill

On 12/11/2014 05:10 AM, Torsten Paul wrote:
> The forum at OpenGL (https://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/) seems to be
> lively. I'm sure someone there could be motivated by a well-written
> forumpost where we explain what kind of challenges OpenSCAD has currently
> with OpenGL.
>
I think the challenges are mostly on OpenSCAD side, like consolidating
all the scattered places where model render is happening.

One of the biggest questions is if there's a nice abstraction layer for
the OpenGL stuff. While there are a number of projects doing that, e.g.
OpenSceneGraph, Ogre, Irrlicht, ... but most tend to be more targeted
at games which does not fit too nicely with OpenSCAD. OpenSceneGraph
might be a reasonable choice, but it's a huge project in itself, so it
could be a challenge to integrate. It is available in MXE which we use
for Windows builds, so that's a big plus.

Actually the newly released Qt5.4 does bring some more relatively low
level OpenGL abstractions, so maybe that's all we need.

Still an engine that supports things like Camera, 3D interactions and
ideally even with support for GLES2 would help a lot.

ciao,
Torsten.


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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

MichaelAtOz
Administrator
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
MichaelAtOz wrote
There were a bunch of OpenSCAD issues with Intel graphics some time ago, are they still problematic?
This is the CPU/GPU.

I recall issues with Inter HD graphics, are they resolved? Otherwise I'd probably add a Geoforce card.

--------------
Intel® Core™ i7-3770 Processor
(8M Cache, up to 3.90 GHz)
SPECIFICATIONS
Essentials
Status Launched
Launch Date Q2'12
Processor Number i7-3770
# of Cores 4
# of Threads 8
Clock Speed 3.4 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency 3.9 GHz
Intel® Smart Cache 8 MB
DMI 5 GT/s
Instruction Set 64-bit
Instruction Set Extensions SSE4.1/4.2, AVX
Embedded Options Available
 
Yes
Lithography 22 nm
Max TDP 77 W
Thermal Solution Specification 2011D
Recommended Customer Price BOX : $305.00
TRAY: $294.00
Memory Specifications
Max Memory Size (dependent on memory type) 32 GB
Memory Types DDR3-1333/1600
# of Memory Channels 2
Max Memory Bandwidth 25.6 GB/s
ECC Memory Supported ‡
 
No
Graphics Specifications
Processor Graphics ‡ Intel® HD Graphics 4000
Graphics Base Frequency 650 MHz
Graphics Max Dynamic Frequency 1.15 GHz
Intel® Quick Sync Video
 
Yes
Intel® InTru™ 3D Technology Yes
Intel® Insider™ Yes
Intel® Wireless Display
 
Yes
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# of Displays Supported ‡ 3
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Admin - email* me if you need anything,
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

wmartin
In reply to this post by Bananapeel
I've been noticing that Nvidia has co-processor "CUDA" cards that do not
include video out, for a good bit less money
than the graphics cards. If one were to build openSCAD from source &
link with the Nvidia math library & driver code,
any thoughts on what order of speed-up might be possible? Depends on the
nature of the math being done, no doubt,
but lots of matrix multiplies lie underneath the openSCAD primitives.
-bill

On 12/11/2014 02:40 AM, Bananapeel wrote:

> MichaelAtOz:
> Simply upgrading to the integrated graphics in the latest intel processors
> (haswell i3/5/7 4xxx) should give you a very significant increase in
> graphics performance.
>
> wmartin will very likely see the same performance increase.
>
> When it comes to graphics cards it appears to me like more expensive is
> better. You get what you pay for. Note that the cheaper ones give less
> performance than the integrated graphics in haswell processors.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.openscad.org/graphics-cards-for-opengl-tp10464p10485.html
> Sent from the OpenSCAD mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
>
>


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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

Bananapeel
wmartin wrote
If one were to build openSCAD from source &
link with the Nvidia math library & driver code,
any thoughts on what order of speed-up might be possible?
Absolutely zero unless you reprogram those parts of OpenSCAD from scratch.
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Re: graphics cards for opengl?

MichaelAtOz
Administrator
In reply to this post by MichaelAtOz
> Note that the cheaper ones give less performance than the integrated graphics in haswell processors.

For comparison. Inter HD 4000 is pretty low on the list.

gaming graphics card list

Anyway I'll give the integrated one a spin.
Admin - email* me if you need anything,
or if I've done something stupid...
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Unless specifically shown otherwise above, my contribution is in the Public Domain; to the extent possible under law, I have waived all copyright and related or neighbouring rights to this work.
Obviously inclusion of works of previous authors is not included in the above.


The TPP is no simple “trade agreement.” Fight it! http://www.ourfairdeal.org/ time is running out!
12