[OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

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[OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
Hi,
recently I started sharing development tasks with other people. As for now ,since I am more a programmer rather then a CAD guy I love to use Openscad.
However, other people within the team prefer one of the big commercial CAD programs and further more they might get help and training using those programs (university environment).
I never really used those and wonder if someone here can give some advice from a openscad-users perspective.
I think I can manage to get access to either Catia or Inventor. Maybe others if you name them.

Our task: Rather simple 3D drawings for 3D printing of engineering and scientific builds, as well as for conventional manufacturing and for documentation. 
Which tool might be the best for this and more important which would allow to use/share results with openscad.
I am a Linux guy so if there is a tool running under Linux I am happy with it.

Thanks for all input

Torwag

CC. Sorry for being a bit OT but I guess this question pops up from time to time.


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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Peter Uithoven
Hi Torwag,

For non programmers there aren't a lot of options in opensource CAD software. Only FreeCAD.
But please remember that if you want to share your designs, designed using commercial tools like Catia or Inventor, other people need to buy these tools as well.

Best regards,
Peter Uithoven



On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,
recently I started sharing development tasks with other people. As for now ,since I am more a programmer rather then a CAD guy I love to use Openscad.
However, other people within the team prefer one of the big commercial CAD programs and further more they might get help and training using those programs (university environment).
I never really used those and wonder if someone here can give some advice from a openscad-users perspective.
I think I can manage to get access to either Catia or Inventor. Maybe others if you name them.

Our task: Rather simple 3D drawings for 3D printing of engineering and scientific builds, as well as for conventional manufacturing and for documentation. 
Which tool might be the best for this and more important which would allow to use/share results with openscad.
I am a Linux guy so if there is a tool running under Linux I am happy with it.

Thanks for all input

Torwag

CC. Sorry for being a bit OT but I guess this question pops up from time to time.


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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

David Powell
there's one or two worth a note for those that like the gui input methods,

BRL-Cad  ,  although I don't find the interface intuitive and more of a  70's style cad software , its been some time since i last used it 

blender , this i find to be very powerful and now its got stl print export 
although it has some drawbacks most can be worked around 
it does take some time to learn the keyboard short cuts

freecad , fails to have the more powerful mesh editing features that blender has , like  radial arrays and such 

openscad , all text but its practical 

I currently have been using  openscad to create stl parts , importing them into freecad to position them or belnder  , although using all 3 packages where they provide the best functionality for the task 

as a thought  though for a scad feature , (it would be a big feature request for scad ) but 
 if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay" 

Dave


On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Peter Uithoven <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Torwag,

For non programmers there aren't a lot of options in opensource CAD software. Only FreeCAD.
But please remember that if you want to share your designs, designed using commercial tools like Catia or Inventor, other people need to buy these tools as well.

Best regards,
Peter Uithoven



On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,
recently I started sharing development tasks with other people. As for now ,since I am more a programmer rather then a CAD guy I love to use Openscad.
However, other people within the team prefer one of the big commercial CAD programs and further more they might get help and training using those programs (university environment).
I never really used those and wonder if someone here can give some advice from a openscad-users perspective.
I think I can manage to get access to either Catia or Inventor. Maybe others if you name them.

Our task: Rather simple 3D drawings for 3D printing of engineering and scientific builds, as well as for conventional manufacturing and for documentation. 
Which tool might be the best for this and more important which would allow to use/share results with openscad.
I am a Linux guy so if there is a tool running under Linux I am happy with it.

Thanks for all input

Torwag

CC. Sorry for being a bit OT but I guess this question pops up from time to time.


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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
Hi,

thanks for the input. I will look into blender again. I tried once BRLCad but wasn't very happy with it.
Freecad seems nice but was to buggy at the time I tested it.

Nevertheless, for me the "problem" is that students can take courses on Catia and/or Inventor. Thus, they come with a reasonable knowledge about those programs.
I personally do not like the idea to teach students certain proprietary programs. However, the counter-argument is "we teach what is semi-industrial standard". There is not yet a course OpenScad ;) and students have to learn first before they can solve the real task.

Thus, I am looking how to get both worlds together.

On another note, during a web search I found

Blendercad which seems to me like a friendly fork of Blender towards CAD and away from Animation/Rendering

Another interesting project seems to be NaroCad.
There seems to be no direct way to use it under Linux but it seems to be somehow in between Openscad and the conventional methods. Does someone here as any experience with that?

Greetings

Torwag

CC. What I really like on OpenScad, is the fact that a totally non-CAD person can get some output within a few minutes. Try to get this with the conventional approach. 
I like the idea of having wizards though.... for openscad it comes basically down to code templates and code completion. Something a good editor like vim/emacs easily provides already. Maybe openscad should promote more the usage of "real" editors (e.g. providing and maintain modes for emacs, vim, etc. and keep its own editor for basic read and minor corrections?! I guess to less OpenScad users know that they are free to choice whatever editor they prefer.



On 4 June 2013 11:08, David Powell <[hidden email]> wrote:
there's one or two worth a note for those that like the gui input methods,

BRL-Cad  ,  although I don't find the interface intuitive and more of a  70's style cad software , its been some time since i last used it 

blender , this i find to be very powerful and now its got stl print export 
although it has some drawbacks most can be worked around 
it does take some time to learn the keyboard short cuts

freecad , fails to have the more powerful mesh editing features that blender has , like  radial arrays and such 

openscad , all text but its practical 

I currently have been using  openscad to create stl parts , importing them into freecad to position them or belnder  , although using all 3 packages where they provide the best functionality for the task 

as a thought  though for a scad feature , (it would be a big feature request for scad ) but 
 if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay" 

Dave


On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Peter Uithoven <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Torwag,

For non programmers there aren't a lot of options in opensource CAD software. Only FreeCAD.
But please remember that if you want to share your designs, designed using commercial tools like Catia or Inventor, other people need to buy these tools as well.

Best regards,
Peter Uithoven



On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,
recently I started sharing development tasks with other people. As for now ,since I am more a programmer rather then a CAD guy I love to use Openscad.
However, other people within the team prefer one of the big commercial CAD programs and further more they might get help and training using those programs (university environment).
I never really used those and wonder if someone here can give some advice from a openscad-users perspective.
I think I can manage to get access to either Catia or Inventor. Maybe others if you name them.

Our task: Rather simple 3D drawings for 3D printing of engineering and scientific builds, as well as for conventional manufacturing and for documentation. 
Which tool might be the best for this and more important which would allow to use/share results with openscad.
I am a Linux guy so if there is a tool running under Linux I am happy with it.

Thanks for all input

Torwag

CC. Sorry for being a bit OT but I guess this question pops up from time to time.


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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Triffid Hunter
On 4 June 2013 19:42, Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  for openscad it comes basically
> down to code templates and code completion. Something a good editor like
> vim/emacs easily provides already. Maybe openscad should promote more the
> usage of "real" editors (e.g. providing and maintain modes for emacs, vim,
> etc. and keep its own editor for basic read and minor corrections?! I guess
> to less OpenScad users know that they are free to choice whatever editor
> they prefer.

this is what the 'automatic reload and compile' feature in the design
menu does- monitors the saved scad file, and does an F5 render every
time the file changes so you can use <favourite editor> then set
openscad to hide editor and always on top
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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
Hi,

this is what the 'automatic reload and compile' feature in the design
menu does- monitors the saved scad file, and does an F5 render every
time the file changes so you can use <favourite editor> then set
openscad to hide editor and always on top


I know... just believe it gets relatively less promoted.  I would e.g. love to see an emacs mode file and vi settings for openscad within the repro. How about writing a bit more about it in the brand new website?


Greetings

Torwag


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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

kintel
Administrator
On 2013-06-04, at 12:41 , Torsten Wagner wrote:

> I know... just believe it gets relatively less promoted.  I would e.g. love to see an emacs mode file and vi settings for openscad within the repro. How about writing a bit more about it in the brand new website?
>
https://github.com/openscad/openscad/blob/master/contrib/scad-mode.el

The documentation could be better - I'm spending most of my time on code, but the website itself a git repository, and the documentation is a wiki - all to facilitate external contributions.

Cheers,

 -Marius

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

William Adams-2
In reply to this post by David Powell
On Jun 4, 2013, at 5:08 AM, David Powell wrote:

>  if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay"

I dunno. I think that what's really needed is a hybrid mode where one has two windows:

 - one shows the code and allows editing of the code directly as text
 - another shows the preview and allows one to drag nodes around, or instantiate objects by dragging them in from a toolbar, or do editing and interaction like TinkerCAD --- as soon as one is done modifying, the code in the text window is up-dated

This would allow the best of both worlds.

William

--
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senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
Hi,
The idea is nice but the realization hard to do. You would have to track each and every object and operation to know which parts of the code you have to modify to reflect the GUI-based changes. However, I guess there are even situations where it isn't even clear in which way you need to change the code, since there might be several ways to achieve the same changes.
I agree one drawback of OpenSCAD is the fact, that you need a rather long time to make simple small modifications of a complex object, since you have to read and understand the code to find the spot you want to change.

What certainly would help and IIRC it was already discussed would be a "live view" mode in both directions. 
You click on a solid object and the cursor jumps to the line where the object is created.
Vice versa.... the object created from the line the cursor is placed will be colored differently to identify it in the drawing.

I guess this single feature (even only the way code->graphic) itself would be the most flexible one and renders many other/similar solutions (E.g. a tree-view of objects to select from) unneeded. 

Greetings

Torwag 
 


On 4 June 2013 21:10, William Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jun 4, 2013, at 5:08 AM, David Powell wrote:

>  if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay"

I dunno. I think that what's really needed is a hybrid mode where one has two windows:

 - one shows the code and allows editing of the code directly as text
 - another shows the preview and allows one to drag nodes around, or instantiate objects by dragging them in from a toolbar, or do editing and interaction like TinkerCAD --- as soon as one is done modifying, the code in the text window is up-dated

This would allow the best of both worlds.

William

--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercail CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
In reply to this post by kintel
Hi Marius,

Its not much but it is a start ;)


Greetings

Torwag


On 4 June 2013 19:00, Marius Kintel <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2013-06-04, at 12:41 , Torsten Wagner wrote:

> I know... just believe it gets relatively less promoted.  I would e.g. love to see an emacs mode file and vi settings for openscad within the repro. How about writing a bit more about it in the brand new website?
>
https://github.com/openscad/openscad/blob/master/contrib/scad-mode.el

The documentation could be better - I'm spending most of my time on code, but the website itself a git repository, and the documentation is a wiki - all to facilitate external contributions.

Cheers,

 -Marius

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Kenneth Sloan
In reply to this post by Torsten Wagner
Beware creeping featurism… For me, one of the attractions of OpenSCAD is that it is relatively lean and mean
(and script based).  I emphasize "script", rather than "program".

Some things are hard to do in the current OpenSCAD - in those cases I simply roll-my-own in Java and create pieces that I can import.  I'm not sure I *want* a more powerful OpenSCAD (either a more powerful programming language OR a GUI interface).

Remember the (now old) joke: "The one thing missing from modern PERL is a lightweight scripting language."

The features I would like mostly involve import/export of a wider variety of foreign formats.

Next would be better diagnostics on compilation errors - something better than "syntax error on line 37"

As for editors, I always use EMACS and manually import as needed.  Once in a blue moon I may lose discipline and make a minor tweak in the OpenSCAD edit window - and that always turns out to be a mistake.  My primary motivation for this is several disasters early on when I counted on the editor to provide backup protection…and it didn't.
That said, I do NOT support putting any time and effort into beefing up the editor - the world does not need yetAnotherTextEditor!

If you really want a challenging extension - how about: Sweep a 2D polygon along an arbitrary space curve (series of <x,y,z> points).  Even better would be to replace the sequence of points by a sequence of local co-ordinate frames.

I do that now with home-brew Java code (exporting an STL file).  But, I was toying with the idea of implementing this in OpenSCAD.  The major downside is that I consider this a classic error (choosing the wrong tool for the job).  It might be worth doing, just to see how ugly it is.  Who knows, it might turn out OK.

--
Kenneth Sloan
[hidden email]


On Jun 4, 2013, at 13:10 , Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,
The idea is nice but the realization hard to do. You would have to track each and every object and operation to know which parts of the code you have to modify to reflect the GUI-based changes. However, I guess there are even situations where it isn't even clear in which way you need to change the code, since there might be several ways to achieve the same changes.
I agree one drawback of OpenSCAD is the fact, that you need a rather long time to make simple small modifications of a complex object, since you have to read and understand the code to find the spot you want to change.

What certainly would help and IIRC it was already discussed would be a "live view" mode in both directions. 
You click on a solid object and the cursor jumps to the line where the object is created.
Vice versa.... the object created from the line the cursor is placed will be colored differently to identify it in the drawing.

I guess this single feature (even only the way code->graphic) itself would be the most flexible one and renders many other/similar solutions (E.g. a tree-view of objects to select from) unneeded. 

Greetings

Torwag 
 


On 4 June 2013 21:10, William Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jun 4, 2013, at 5:08 AM, David Powell wrote:

>  if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay"

I dunno. I think that what's really needed is a hybrid mode where one has two windows:

 - one shows the code and allows editing of the code directly as text
 - another shows the preview and allows one to drag nodes around, or instantiate objects by dragging them in from a toolbar, or do editing and interaction like TinkerCAD --- as soon as one is done modifying, the code in the text window is up-dated

This would allow the best of both worlds.

William

--
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senior graphic designer
Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

William Adams-2
On Jun 4, 2013, at 4:39 PM, Kenneth Sloan wrote:

> The features I would like mostly involve import/export of a wider variety of foreign formats.

The feature I really want is an internal representation which isn't triangles, which would handle arcs and circles (and Bezier curves) and export G-code directly.

William


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Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Drew Rogge
In reply to this post by Kenneth Sloan
When I first started using an external editor I would hide the built in editor. Now I leave
it open so I can get a better idea of where an error might be. They're often times highlighted
in red. With all the verbiage that ends up in the console window when a compile takes place
it's difficult for me to see the error messages. I will have to admit though that I often get
sucked into fixing the error in OpenSCAD's editor instead on vi and that always ends up bad.

Drew

On 06/04/2013 01:39 PM, Kenneth Sloan wrote:
>
> Next would be better diagnostics on compilation errors - something better than "syntax error on line 37"
>
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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Alan Cox
In reply to this post by Kenneth Sloan
On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 13:39:14 -0700
Kenneth Sloan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Beware creeping featurism… For me, one of the attractions of OpenSCAD is that it is relatively lean and mean
> (and script based).  I emphasize "script", rather than "program".
>
> Some things are hard to do in the current OpenSCAD - in those cases I simply roll-my-own in Java and create pieces that I can import.  I'm not sure I *want* a more powerful OpenSCAD (either a more powerful programming language OR a GUI interface).
>
> Remember the (now old) joke: "The one thing missing from modern PERL is a lightweight scripting language."

It cuts both ways. Clearly there are things you can do in openscad you
don't need a primitive for, but for things like extruding along paths,
and bending along paths there is a good argument for it being in the
language. For one it means you can build something up in openscad, apply
a bend to it and then continue using it in the same script, and second it
means there isn't a dependancy on third party proprietary tools or
specific operating systems as is sometimes otherwise the case.

Talking of old jokes remember PASCAL. As specified it had no unnecessary
or extra features. That made it completely useless for anything real
world. People at least get work done in perl. Indeed perl is the duct
tape of the internet.

BTW isn't your sweep simply a series of linear_extrude() of the line
segments approximating the curve (or even doable with minkowsi ?

Alan
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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

David Powell
In reply to this post by Kenneth Sloan
sorry for the suggestion 

but i agree , it should be lean and mean , but not so minimal that you have to script trivial functions and work around for  basic operations externally  , not saying that it can be done without some changes , hopefully not , although quite a few things you say you code in java it should be possible to write as lib functions saving installing yet another compiler , if it was not probably  from the lack of a needed function 

prob for me the most serious issue would be the need for multi-thread cpu support in render so it compiles  quicker, 

never used perl or emac's i have done ASM for years with  , and a small amount of C but struggle with C++ , just a basic text editor kate or notepad2 if i need to use an external one , although thanks for the tip on using an external editor in case it crashes 

although i guess we have drifted from the original subject of this thread
Dave



On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Kenneth Sloan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Beware creeping featurism… For me, one of the attractions of OpenSCAD is that it is relatively lean and mean
(and script based).  I emphasize "script", rather than "program".

Some things are hard to do in the current OpenSCAD - in those cases I simply roll-my-own in Java and create pieces that I can import.  I'm not sure I *want* a more powerful OpenSCAD (either a more powerful programming language OR a GUI interface).

Remember the (now old) joke: "The one thing missing from modern PERL is a lightweight scripting language."

The features I would like mostly involve import/export of a wider variety of foreign formats.

Next would be better diagnostics on compilation errors - something better than "syntax error on line 37"

As for editors, I always use EMACS and manually import as needed.  Once in a blue moon I may lose discipline and make a minor tweak in the OpenSCAD edit window - and that always turns out to be a mistake.  My primary motivation for this is several disasters early on when I counted on the editor to provide backup protection…and it didn't.
That said, I do NOT support putting any time and effort into beefing up the editor - the world does not need yetAnotherTextEditor!

If you really want a challenging extension - how about: Sweep a 2D polygon along an arbitrary space curve (series of <x,y,z> points).  Even better would be to replace the sequence of points by a sequence of local co-ordinate frames.

I do that now with home-brew Java code (exporting an STL file).  But, I was toying with the idea of implementing this in OpenSCAD.  The major downside is that I consider this a classic error (choosing the wrong tool for the job).  It might be worth doing, just to see how ugly it is.  Who knows, it might turn out OK.

--
Kenneth Sloan
[hidden email]


On Jun 4, 2013, at 13:10 , Torsten Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,
The idea is nice but the realization hard to do. You would have to track each and every object and operation to know which parts of the code you have to modify to reflect the GUI-based changes. However, I guess there are even situations where it isn't even clear in which way you need to change the code, since there might be several ways to achieve the same changes.
I agree one drawback of OpenSCAD is the fact, that you need a rather long time to make simple small modifications of a complex object, since you have to read and understand the code to find the spot you want to change.

What certainly would help and IIRC it was already discussed would be a "live view" mode in both directions. 
You click on a solid object and the cursor jumps to the line where the object is created.
Vice versa.... the object created from the line the cursor is placed will be colored differently to identify it in the drawing.

I guess this single feature (even only the way code->graphic) itself would be the most flexible one and renders many other/similar solutions (E.g. a tree-view of objects to select from) unneeded. 

Greetings

Torwag 
 


On 4 June 2013 21:10, William Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Jun 4, 2013, at 5:08 AM, David Powell wrote:

>  if you used a " wizard " type input  based on code folding principles to allow creation/editing of scad scripts that would bridge the gap somewhat and offer a gui input/edit option "overlay"

I dunno. I think that what's really needed is a hybrid mode where one has two windows:

 - one shows the code and allows editing of the code directly as text
 - another shows the preview and allows one to drag nodes around, or instantiate objects by dragging them in from a toolbar, or do editing and interaction like TinkerCAD --- as soon as one is done modifying, the code in the text window is up-dated

This would allow the best of both worlds.

William

--
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Fry Communications
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Kenneth Sloan
In reply to this post by Alan Cox

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Kenneth Sloan
[hidden email]


On Jun 4, 2013, at 14:57 , Alan Cox <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
BTW isn't your sweep simply a series of linear_extrude() of the line
segments approximating the curve (or even doable with minkowsi ?
 
No.

The problem (at least *my* problem) is more complicated than that - which is why I'm perfectly happy for it to NOT be in OpenSCAD.

The (almost) full version of my problem is:

GIVEN: 
 a) Point3D p = f(u)
 b) a 2D polygon (which might be extended to ALSO be a function of u) defined wrt a local coordinate frame
 c) (optionally) a Scalar s = g(u) - a scale factor

PRODUCE: 
 a) a set of "well-behaved" local coordinate frames
    (I'm currently partial to a generalization of Frenet frames - modified
    to avoid the "figure-8 problem"
 b) an appropriately spaced set of cross-sections
 c) a tiling of the cross-sections to form a tube.

There are many simplifications to this that might be useful - but I want at least this much control.
I'm sure I *could* write it in OpenSCAD, but it's much, much easier to do all this in a full-featured programming language.  I use Java to create STL for the part - and import it.  Your milage may vary.

For starters, the number and placement of the frames depend heavily on the local curvature of the axis defined by f(u), and also on the local rotation of the co-ordinate frames.  Most of the time, this can be done locally - but some nasty versions may well require a global solution [I try to avoid these, they are messy]

In my considered opinion, this is sufficiently special purpose, and sufficiently poorly defined so that I don't want anyone to even TRY to build it into OpenSCAD.  Most people won't find it useful.  I'd much rather have
a compiler that provides error messages more illuminating than "look at this line of code - it's wrong, dummy!"

Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

kintel
Administrator
On 2013-06-05, at 24:40 , Kenneth Sloan wrote:
>
> Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.

I like these analogies - it really help understand what people see in OpenSCAD :)

My favourite analogy so far is that OpenSCAD without variables and modules is like html, while added modules and variables, OpenSCAD is like an XSLT producing html. The question is where Javascript (aka. dom editing) fits into the picture.

 -Marius

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Bryan Bishop
In reply to this post by William Adams-2
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 3:47 PM, William Adams <[hidden email]> wrote:
The feature I really want is an internal representation which isn't triangles, which would handle arcs and circles (and Bezier curves) and export G-code directly.

I think you mean you want to use brlcad. It's scripted, just like openscad. It handles nurbs and Bezier curves, unlike openscad. Doesn't have an internal triangle representation.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

David Powell
In reply to this post by Kenneth Sloan


>
>Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.
>
but its not perl or awk you seem to be suggesting that you  need java functionality in the language to get it to do what you want from it at the same time saying that if the needed extra functions are added that it will be of no use ,,, think that's a contradiction 

then theres python , and a host of other scripting languages , cant say you will need all the functionality of say java or python or another , but it is short of some functions , i can think of one given your current example 

to extrude the object allong a path of points , with a 2d start object , 
i would of looked at it being done this way  
    place the 2d object at the base start , duplicate the 2d object maybe rotate translate to the next point
 and  then i would need to create a mesh of the edge points between the 2 faces that is a missing function 

solutions would need like you say external script or patch or  feature request 
looking at the problem i can see two options 

given that relates to something like the linear_extrude function , then use that as a base  mod a patch to the linear_extrude and rename the function , to create a new function  that allows for the extrude output to be positioned differently like embedding   rotate()and translate() instead to give a function like coordinate_extrude(rotate_x,rotate_y,rotate_z,translate_x,translate_y,translate_z,slices,center,convexity )   , slices would need follow  a curve and make the function smoother 

but yea wrong tool ,, seems you don't like C codeing  ether, its another pearl  
i don't have enough hdd space on my linux box to install the source atm so cant hack out a patch for it 

Dave
 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Kenneth Sloan <[hidden email]> wrote:

--
Kenneth Sloan
[hidden email]


On Jun 4, 2013, at 14:57 , Alan Cox <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
BTW isn't your sweep simply a series of linear_extrude() of the line
segments approximating the curve (or even doable with minkowsi ?
 
No.

The problem (at least *my* problem) is more complicated than that - which is why I'm perfectly happy for it to NOT be in OpenSCAD.

The (almost) full version of my problem is:

GIVEN: 
 a) Point3D p = f(u)
 b) a 2D polygon (which might be extended to ALSO be a function of u) defined wrt a local coordinate frame
 c) (optionally) a Scalar s = g(u) - a scale factor

PRODUCE: 
 a) a set of "well-behaved" local coordinate frames
    (I'm currently partial to a generalization of Frenet frames - modified
    to avoid the "figure-8 problem"
 b) an appropriately spaced set of cross-sections
 c) a tiling of the cross-sections to form a tube.

There are many simplifications to this that might be useful - but I want at least this much control.
I'm sure I *could* write it in OpenSCAD, but it's much, much easier to do all this in a full-featured programming language.  I use Java to create STL for the part - and import it.  Your milage may vary.

For starters, the number and placement of the frames depend heavily on the local curvature of the axis defined by f(u), and also on the local rotation of the co-ordinate frames.  Most of the time, this can be done locally - but some nasty versions may well require a global solution [I try to avoid these, they are messy]

In my considered opinion, this is sufficiently special purpose, and sufficiently poorly defined so that I don't want anyone to even TRY to build it into OpenSCAD.  Most people won't find it useful.  I'd much rather have
a compiler that provides error messages more illuminating than "look at this line of code - it's wrong, dummy!"

Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.

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Re: [OpenScad] Commercial CAD and OpenScad

Torsten Wagner
I just want to add
There is a difference between bells and whistles and functionality which at best people ignore if they want use it (or simply deactivate it).
For me, debugging and even more changing openscad files which I didn't touch for weeks is difficult at the moment.

1) Possible error messages get soaked up in many many compiling methods. IMHO the compiler itself ignores resp. issues only a warning at situation where it should result in an error. 
Solution would be: Get a tab-view for the output.... one tab for all messages, one for only warnings and errors.
Allow people to customize at which warning error level compiling should stop with a loud bang.

2) Even if the compiler is fine it does not mean all is correct. Its like with HTML or LaTeX the output could be completely wrong. I need tools to examine why it went wrong and where it went wrong. This is already standard for a lot of scripting languages. For me coloring the object represented by a certain code block, or jump to the code block by selecting a certain object would help me extremely to solve problems quickly and to identify where I have to change code to get a certain effect. This is for me not a feature which bloats openscad  it is more compared to a debugger for conventional languages. Every good language should have debugging capabilities and openscad has a few already.

To make this completely OT from the original post....
How about splitting the compiler from the GUI? There was already various request for command line usage.
Why not offering a openscad compiler which exports directly into an desired format and developing a simple GUI for those who want to use it.... maybe other might want to use only emacs, vi, etc. Others might love to get OpenScad in there eclipse environment ;)

Greetings

Torwag



 


On 5 June 2013 14:03, David Powell <[hidden email]> wrote:


>
>Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.
>
but its not perl or awk you seem to be suggesting that you  need java functionality in the language to get it to do what you want from it at the same time saying that if the needed extra functions are added that it will be of no use ,,, think that's a contradiction 

then theres python , and a host of other scripting languages , cant say you will need all the functionality of say java or python or another , but it is short of some functions , i can think of one given your current example 

to extrude the object allong a path of points , with a 2d start object , 
i would of looked at it being done this way  
    place the 2d object at the base start , duplicate the 2d object maybe rotate translate to the next point
 and  then i would need to create a mesh of the edge points between the 2 faces that is a missing function 

solutions would need like you say external script or patch or  feature request 
looking at the problem i can see two options 

given that relates to something like the linear_extrude function , then use that as a base  mod a patch to the linear_extrude and rename the function , to create a new function  that allows for the extrude output to be positioned differently like embedding   rotate()and translate() instead to give a function like coordinate_extrude(rotate_x,rotate_y,rotate_z,translate_x,translate_y,translate_z,slices,center,convexity )   , slices would need follow  a curve and make the function smoother 

but yea wrong tool ,, seems you don't like C codeing  ether, its another pearl  
i don't have enough hdd space on my linux box to install the source atm so cant hack out a patch for it 

Dave
 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Kenneth Sloan <[hidden email]> wrote:

--
Kenneth Sloan
[hidden email]


On Jun 4, 2013, at 14:57 , Alan Cox <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
BTW isn't your sweep simply a series of linear_extrude() of the line
segments approximating the curve (or even doable with minkowsi ?
 
No.

The problem (at least *my* problem) is more complicated than that - which is why I'm perfectly happy for it to NOT be in OpenSCAD.

The (almost) full version of my problem is:

GIVEN: 
 a) Point3D p = f(u)
 b) a 2D polygon (which might be extended to ALSO be a function of u) defined wrt a local coordinate frame
 c) (optionally) a Scalar s = g(u) - a scale factor

PRODUCE: 
 a) a set of "well-behaved" local coordinate frames
    (I'm currently partial to a generalization of Frenet frames - modified
    to avoid the "figure-8 problem"
 b) an appropriately spaced set of cross-sections
 c) a tiling of the cross-sections to form a tube.

There are many simplifications to this that might be useful - but I want at least this much control.
I'm sure I *could* write it in OpenSCAD, but it's much, much easier to do all this in a full-featured programming language.  I use Java to create STL for the part - and import it.  Your milage may vary.

For starters, the number and placement of the frames depend heavily on the local curvature of the axis defined by f(u), and also on the local rotation of the co-ordinate frames.  Most of the time, this can be done locally - but some nasty versions may well require a global solution [I try to avoid these, they are messy]

In my considered opinion, this is sufficiently special purpose, and sufficiently poorly defined so that I don't want anyone to even TRY to build it into OpenSCAD.  Most people won't find it useful.  I'd much rather have
a compiler that provides error messages more illuminating than "look at this line of code - it's wrong, dummy!"

Right now, OpenSCAD is "awk".  If it becomes (modern) "perl", I won't find it as useful.

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