Interactivity

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Interactivity

Laszlo KREKACS
Hey,

Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?

Like dragging a specific object and a translate() will automatically
added at the top of the object's tree. (in the text editor)
It would be extremely useful if a grid (of 1mm) would also be
available. The same for rotating (1 degree units).
And some snaping (like snaping to face or edge).

Would increase productivity quite a lot!

Best,
 Laszlo

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Re: Interactivity

kintel
Administrator
On Dec 11, 2011, at 22:30 PM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
>
> Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?
>
This is all on the wishlist, but no concrete plans yet.
I believe such functionality have a great potential to increase productivity, as well as lower the learning curve of OpenSCAD.

 -Marius


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Re: Interactivity

Whosawhatsis
I have to disagree. There are plenty of tools that work this way, but OpenSCAD is a different (and in my opinion, better) paradigm for design. If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Marius Kintel wrote:

On Dec 11, 2011, at 22:30 PM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:

Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?
This is all on the wishlist, but no concrete plans yet.
I believe such functionality have a great potential to increase productivity, as well as lower the learning curve of OpenSCAD.

-Marius

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list

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Re: Interactivity

kintel
Administrator
On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:12 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:

> If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

The keyword is non-intrusive. If we can get that right, I think this has potential.
This would be an add-on which you _can_ use, not _must_ use. From my perspective, I'd see it as much as on-line documentation as an actual GUI for modeling.

Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice versa.

Anyway,  this is not something which is hacked together quickly, but the GUI concepts could benefit from being played with.

 -Marius


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Re: Interactivity

Whosawhatsis
Ok, that's one example of where GUI interactivity would come in handy, though a few more features in the text editor (at the very least, the system-level find text feature should be available) would probably be more useful.

The problem with adding GUI editing for things like moving, rotating, resizing, etc. is the same problem that you have with WYSIWYG HTML editors. HTML that is written by a person tends to be reasonably well laid-out and human readable, but the code generated by WYSIWYG editors never fails to demonstrate the worst way to accomplish something, and such an interface is obviously useless for parametric modeling.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Marius Kintel wrote:

On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:12 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:

If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

The keyword is non-intrusive. If we can get that right, I think this has potential.
This would be an add-on which you _can_ use, not _must_ use. From my perspective, I'd see it as much as on-line documentation as an actual GUI for modeling.

Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice versa.

Anyway, this is not something which is hacked together quickly, but the GUI concepts could benefit from being played with.

-Marius

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Re: Interactivity

kintel
Administrator
On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:58 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:

> The problem with adding GUI editing for things like moving, rotating, resizing, etc. is the same problem that you have with WYSIWYG HTML editors.

Yep, that's exactly what I want to avoid :)

And yes, the editor sucks. I tried once integrating qcodeedit, but that one turned out to be abandoned.

Btw., writing/integrating a better editor should be a pretty self-contained task if someone has some spare cycles lying around. I'd be happy to help facilitating or refactoring surrounding code.

 -Marius


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Re: Interactivity

Stuart Young
In reply to this post by kintel
On 12 December 2011 09:43, Marius Kintel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice versa.

IMO, this would be very useful. Especially if you can highlight only part of an object (requires 2D and 3D highlighting - not an easy thing sometimes) and see the code related to the highlighted area. Great for knowing what will be affected if you're modifying some part of an object (which may allow you to simplify the object as you change things, as they're not relevant anymore).

Something else I think would be useful is being able to use a GUI to arbitrarily throw in a 2D projection plane (and then perhaps to tweak the actual values in code). However, I realise that once you go down that path, you may as well start looking at doing the same with all sorts of objects. Personally I don't see the need, and would prefer that Openscad stays a primarily language-based platform.

One last thing that I would find useful is basic rulers on the views. This gives you an instant view of the scale of an object. Could also be useful for implementing the 2D projection plane, by using points on the rulers to create the plane.

Note: I haven't used Openscad since the latest release happened, but about to dive back in.

--
Stuart Young (aka Cefiar)
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Re: Interactivity

Len Trigg
In reply to this post by Whosawhatsis
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ok, that's one example of where GUI interactivity would come in handy,
> though a few more features in the text editor (at the very least, the
> system-level find text feature should be available) would probably be more
> useful.

Just use <your_favourite_editor> along with the automatic reload and
compile option. It works brilliantly!

Cheers,
Len.

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Re: Interactivity

Whosawhatsis
I've tried that, didn't care for it.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Len Trigg wrote:

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok, that's one example of where GUI interactivity would come in handy,
though a few more features in the text editor (at the very least, the
system-level find text feature should be available) would probably be more
useful.

Just use <your_favourite_editor> along with the automatic reload and
compile option. It works brilliantly!

Cheers,
Len.
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Re: Interactivity

Triffid Hunter
In reply to this post by kintel
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Marius Kintel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Btw., writing/integrating a better editor should be a pretty self-contained task if someone has some spare cycles lying around. I'd be happy to help facilitating or refactoring surrounding code.

I'd be perfectly happy if you optionally allowed using the kde
advanced text editor part that kate and kdevelop are built around.
Perhaps a compile-time flag?

At the very least, something that supports syntax highlighting,
automatic indentation, and lets us indent/unindent whole blocks

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Re: Interactivity

Laszlo KREKACS
In reply to this post by Stuart Young
Whosawhatsis wrote:
> If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong,
> and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

What I do very often is like approximating, so I start with 20 units,
then I refine, so 15 units, then 16 units, and see where the object
moves. Its always some itereation to get it right.
It is especially painful when you want to put together a big model
which are based on several (20+) smaller modell.

This feature could spare me like hours from a complex positioning.
(which takes now several hours to get it right).

Just model something complex once, and you know what I mean.

Stuart Young:
> Something else I think would be useful is being able to use a GUI to
> arbitrarily throw in a 2D projection plane (and then perhaps to tweak the
> actual values in code).

This one would be my second wish, just didn't want overwhelm people here:)

I do it like this now:
1. I import the .stl model what I want to remodell/port/reverse
engineer it in openscad
2. Move/rotate it where I want to cut it
3. cut it with projection(cut=true)
4. export it to .dxf
5. measure the relevant stuff in qcad.
6. GOTO 2.

It works, but slow(too many clicks opening an another program, etc).
qcad does not support reloading, and its linux only.

So a 2D measurement tool what qcad has would be awesome, but I
understand it is a huge work.

Best,
 Laszlo

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Re: Interactivity

Laszlo KREKACS
In reply to this post by Triffid Hunter
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 12:47 AM, Triffid Hunter
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd be perfectly happy if you optionally allowed using the kde
> advanced text editor part that kate and kdevelop are built around.
> Perhaps a compile-time flag?
>
> At the very least, something that supports syntax highlighting,
> automatic indentation, and lets us indent/unindent whole blocks

Or just fixed width font would be a nice start:)

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Re: Interactivity

Ed Nisley
In reply to this post by Laszlo KREKACS
On Sun, 2011-12-11 at 22:30 +0100, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
> ... if a grid (of 1mm) would also be available.

I've been laying a 10 mm grid of 1 mm cubes on the Z=0 plane to help
visualize the extent of objects:

http://softsolder.com/2011/08/22/revised-openscad-layout-grid/

It's not as nice as a built-in grid of fine lines, but it serves my
simple needs...

--
Ed
http://softsolder.com



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Re: Interactivity

tjhowse
In reply to this post by Laszlo KREKACS
I'm not sure if spending time building a better text-entry-box instead of working on other issues is worth the payoff. Everyone who's ever written code surely has their own favourite text editor (vim, notepad++) that has far more features and is far more usable than openscad could ever be. I'm planning on writing a syntax highlighting plugin for notepad++.

I'd be in favour of more prominantly featuring the "Automatic reload and compile" feature, perhaps to the point of having openscad launch the system default text editor to edit the file, and pop up the regular openscad window with the render, the debug window but sans text editor. This would ideally suit my usage scenario, and probably 90% of other users too.

-tjhowse.

On 12 December 2011 09:39, <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

  1.  Interactivity (Laszlo KREKACS)
  2. Re: Interactivity (Marius Kintel)
  3. Re: Interactivity (Whosawhatsis)
  4. Re: Interactivity (Marius Kintel)
  5. Re: Interactivity (Whosawhatsis)
  6. Re: Interactivity (Marius Kintel)
  7. Re: Interactivity (Stuart Young)
  8. Re: File crashing openscad, change one digit,     doesn't crash
     (Marius Kintel)
  9. Re: Interactivity (Len Trigg)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:30:34 +0100
From: Laszlo KREKACS <[hidden email]>
Subject: [OpenSCAD]  Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID:
       <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hey,

Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?

Like dragging a specific object and a translate() will automatically
added at the top of the object's tree. (in the text editor)
It would be extremely useful if a grid (of 1mm) would also be
available. The same for rotating (1 degree units).
And some snaping (like snaping to face or edge).

Would increase productivity quite a lot!

Best,
 Laszlo


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:02:09 +0100
From: Marius Kintel <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 11, 2011, at 22:30 PM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
>
> Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?
>
This is all on the wishlist, but no concrete plans yet.
I believe such functionality have a great potential to increase productivity, as well as lower the learning curve of OpenSCAD.

 -Marius



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:12:34 -0800
From: Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I have to disagree. There are plenty of tools that work this way, but OpenSCAD is a different (and in my opinion, better) paradigm for design. If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Marius Kintel wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2011, at 22:30 PM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
> >
> > Im interested if there is any plan of developing some interactivity in openscad?
> This is all on the wishlist, but no concrete plans yet.
> I believe such functionality have a great potential to increase productivity, as well as lower the learning curve of OpenSCAD.
>
> -Marius
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])
> http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
>
>


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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:43:30 +0100
From: Marius Kintel <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:12 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:

> If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

The keyword is non-intrusive. If we can get that right, I think this has potential.
This would be an add-on which you _can_ use, not _must_ use. From my perspective, I'd see it as much as on-line documentation as an actual GUI for modeling.

Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice versa.

Anyway,  this is not something which is hacked together quickly, but the GUI concepts could benefit from being played with.

 -Marius



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:58:44 -0800
From: Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Ok, that's one example of where GUI interactivity would come in handy, though a few more features in the text editor (at the very least, the system-level find text feature should be available) would probably be more useful.

The problem with adding GUI editing for things like moving, rotating, resizing, etc. is the same problem that you have with WYSIWYG HTML editors. HTML that is written by a person tends to be reasonably well laid-out and human readable, but the code generated by WYSIWYG editors never fails to demonstrate the worst way to accomplish something, and such an interface is obviously useless for parametric modeling.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Marius Kintel wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:12 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:
>
> > If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong, and you should be using one of those other tools instead.
>
> The keyword is non-intrusive. If we can get that right, I think this has potential.
> This would be an add-on which you _can_ use, not _must_ use. From my perspective, I'd see it as much as on-line documentation as an actual GUI for modeling.
>
> Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice versa.
>
> Anyway, this is not something which is hacked together quickly, but the GUI concepts could benefit from being played with.
>
> -Marius
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email] (mailto:[hidden email])
> http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad
>
>


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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 00:02:51 +0100
From: Marius Kintel <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 11, 2011, at 23:58 PM, Whosawhatsis wrote:

> The problem with adding GUI editing for things like moving, rotating, resizing, etc. is the same problem that you have with WYSIWYG HTML editors.

Yep, that's exactly what I want to avoid :)

And yes, the editor sucks. I tried once integrating qcodeedit, but that one turned out to be abandoned.

Btw., writing/integrating a better editor should be a pretty self-contained task if someone has some spare cycles lying around. I'd be happy to help facilitating or refactoring surrounding code.

 -Marius



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:08:57 +1100
From: Stuart Young <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID:
       <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 12 December 2011 09:43, Marius Kintel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Other things which would fit in here would be e.g. clicking on an object
> in the OpenGL view, and get the corresponding code highlighted, and vice
> versa.
>

IMO, this would be very useful. Especially if you can highlight only part
of an object (requires 2D and 3D highlighting - not an easy thing
sometimes) and see the code related to the highlighted area. Great for
knowing what will be affected if you're modifying some part of an object
(which may allow you to simplify the object as you change things, as
they're not relevant anymore).

Something else I think would be useful is being able to use a GUI to
arbitrarily throw in a 2D projection plane (and then perhaps to tweak the
actual values in code). However, I realise that once you go down that path,
you may as well start looking at doing the same with all sorts of objects.
Personally I don't see the need, and would prefer that Openscad stays a
primarily language-based platform.

One last thing that I would find useful is basic rulers on the views. This
gives you an instant view of the scale of an object. Could also be useful
for implementing the 2D projection plane, by using points on the rulers to
create the plane.

Note: I haven't used Openscad since the latest release happened, but about
to dive back in.

--
Stuart Young (aka Cefiar)
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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 00:16:45 +0100
From: Marius Kintel <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] File crashing openscad, change one digit,
       doesn't crash
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Dec 10, 2011, at 10:36 AM, tjhowse wrote:

> http://pastebin.com/KXPej5E1
>
Thanks.

FYI, this is a minimal example producing the same crash:

render() {
 cube(10);
 rotate([-100,0,0]) cube(10);
}

 -Marius



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:39:55 +1300
From: Len Trigg <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [OpenSCAD] Interactivity
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID:
       <CAOGVwen7F6XOxnD28XnSP_mBVmKHUAc==[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ok, that's one example of where GUI interactivity would come in handy,
> though a few more features in the text editor (at the very least, the
> system-level find text feature should be available) would probably be more
> useful.

Just use <your_favourite_editor> along with the automatic reload and
compile option. It works brilliantly!

Cheers,
Len.


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://rocklinux.net/mailman/listinfo/openscad


End of OpenSCAD Digest, Vol 25, Issue 10
****************************************

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Re: Interactivity

Len Trigg
In reply to this post by Whosawhatsis
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've tried that, didn't care for it.

I am just wondering, why not?

My external editor gets me:
- scad-specific syntax highlighting, indentation
- can start openscad directly on the file currently being edited if
it's not already running
- editing keybindings that match what my brainstem is wired with
- find/replace/etc
- whatever font I have already configured in my_favourite_editor
- can arrange and size the text editing vs openscad display windows
however I want

That's a lot of advantages, but I'd like to hear what disadvantages you see.

Cheers,
Len.

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Re: Interactivity

Whosawhatsis
In reply to this post by Laszlo KREKACS
On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
Whosawhatsis wrote:
If GUI editing would make your OpenSCAD work easier, you're doing it wrong,
and you should be using one of those other tools instead.

What I do very often is like approximating, so I start with 20 units,
then I refine, so 15 units, then 16 units, and see where the object
moves. Its always some itereation to get it right.
It is especially painful when you want to put together a big model
which are based on several (20+) smaller modell.

This feature could spare me like hours from a complex positioning.
(which takes now several hours to get it right).

Just model something complex once, and you know what I mean.

Here are just a few of the complex things I've modeled in OpenSCAD:


Some of those things involved importing STLs and aligning parts to fit them. The problem with using a mouse to do this is that you will only ever achieve "eyeballing" accuracy, and usually with a huge string of unnecessary decimal places at that. If you want to achieve numerical accuracy, the way that OpenSCAD does it now is the right way to do it.
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Re: Interactivity

kintel
Administrator
In reply to this post by Laszlo KREKACS
On Dec 12, 2011, at 00:51 AM, Laszlo KREKACS wrote:
>
> Or just fixed width font would be a nice start:)

That is configurable in the preferences.
The default settings could perhaps be optimized. Suggestions for good default font family setting on Linux and Windows are welcome, unless they're good as they are.

 -Marius


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Re: Interactivity

Whosawhatsis
In reply to this post by Len Trigg
I don't recall all of the reasons that I decided to go back to using OpenSCAD's built-in editor, but easy access to the various rendering commands was one of them. Often I will want to make a small change that I don't want to save and render the resulting model to see what happens. Other times I'll be working on an extremely complex model that will take a few minutes even for an OpenCSG render, and I want to save my work, but don't want my preview screen to blank-out the way it does when it starts a render.

I guess I also just didn't feel that it was responsive enough, and didn't like the need to switch app focus to go between looking around the model in the preview window and editing the code. It's also trickier when you are working on several scad files at once, because you have to make sure the proper file is in the foreground in both apps. It's really just a pain, and I don't really have a specific text editor that I'm in love with. For me, it's about the code, not the editor, and it's not often that I want to use an editor feature rather than just typing something. I don't know if that makes me a purist or some strange sort of luddite.

On Sunday, December 11, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Len Trigg wrote:

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Whosawhatsis <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've tried that, didn't care for it.

I am just wondering, why not?

My external editor gets me:
- scad-specific syntax highlighting, indentation
- can start openscad directly on the file currently being edited if
it's not already running
- editing keybindings that match what my brainstem is wired with
- find/replace/etc
- whatever font I have already configured in my_favourite_editor
- can arrange and size the text editing vs openscad display windows
however I want

That's a lot of advantages, but I'd like to hear what disadvantages you see.

Cheers,
Len.
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Re: Interactivity

Brad Pitcher
In reply to this post by Triffid Hunter

At the very least, something that supports syntax highlighting,
automatic indentation, and lets us indent/unindent whole blocks


FYI, indenting/unindenting blocks, as well as commenting/uncommenting blocks is supported in OpenSCAD. Ctrl+I/Shift+Ctrl+I and Ctrl+D/Shift+Control+D respectively. You'll find the options in the edit menu.
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Re: Interactivity

tjhowse
Find attached a custom syntax highlighting XML for openscad in notepad++. I couldn't get it highlighting mathematical functions following operators, "x/sin(y)" for example, but it still greatly improves readability of openscad code in npp.

On 12 December 2011 11:06, Brad Pitcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the very least, something that supports syntax highlighting,
automatic indentation, and lets us indent/unindent whole blocks


FYI, indenting/unindenting blocks, as well as commenting/uncommenting blocks is supported in OpenSCAD. Ctrl+I/Shift+Ctrl+I and Ctrl+D/Shift+Control+D respectively. You'll find the options in the edit menu.

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OpenSCAD.xml (3K) Download Attachment
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