Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
57 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

Vigardo
Upon checking the "OpenSCAD" keyword in Google Trends I´ve observed a
sustained decay over the last few years.

<http://forum.openscad.org/file/t3088/Interest_Trends_in_OpenSCAD.png>

I´m not an expert, but in my modest opinion a new modern Forum platform
would contribute to revitalize the OpenSCAD impact on the community. *What
do you think?*

For example, *Discourse *(https://www.discourse.org) is completely free to
self-host and you can find the project on GitHub as well
(https://github.com/discourse/discourse). This very easy to use tool is the
one used by the McNeel community (Rhino, GrassHopper, etc...). It is very
intuitive and works seamlessly.

Despite Discourse is my favorite, there are many other free and modern
options. You can check some of them here:
https://itsfoss.com/open-source-forum-software/





--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

doug.moen
This was discussed at length in December.
http://forum.openscad.org/Moving-the-forum-to-something-more-modern-td30919.html

About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum. If you use a good enough email client, and configure it correctly, then an email client is just as a good as a forum web site for following conversations, replying and posting. The added benefit is that you have a single integrated interface for multiple different mailing lists/forums.

Not everybody wants to invest in using and configuring an email client to work this way, but those of us who do don't want to lose the ability to interact with the openscad community using email. So, any modern forum platform we move to should have high quality mailing list integration.

Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong. Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration with Discourse is not possible.

Finding an acceptable replacement for the current forum software is an open issue.
* IMO Google Groups works, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in using it.
* Zulip was mentioned in the previous discussion. It is a well known modern forum with the correct data model, but although it has "email integration", it doesn't seem to have high quality mailing list integration. There is an open issue for Zulip-Mailman integration: https://github.com/zulip/zulip/issues/959
* HyperKitty seems to meet our requirements (eg, https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/). It is a "modern forum" web user interface for mailman. It is GPL free software from the FSF and Fedora uses it. I just found it while composing this message, and I don't have experience using it.

Doug Moen.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Vigardo wrote:

> Upon checking the "OpenSCAD" keyword in Google Trends I´ve observed a
> sustained decay over the last few years.
>
> <http://forum.openscad.org/file/t3088/Interest_Trends_in_OpenSCAD.png>
>
> I´m not an expert, but in my modest opinion a new modern Forum platform
> would contribute to revitalize the OpenSCAD impact on the community. *What
> do you think?*
>
> For example, *Discourse *(https://www.discourse.org) is completely free to
> self-host and you can find the project on GitHub as well
> (https://github.com/discourse/discourse). This very easy to use tool is the
> one used by the McNeel community (Rhino, GrassHopper, etc...). It is very
> intuitive and works seamlessly.
>
> Despite Discourse is my favorite, there are many other free and modern
> options. You can check some of them here:
> https://itsfoss.com/open-source-forum-software/
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> OpenSCAD mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
>

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

doug.moen
> Finding an acceptable replacement for the current forum software is an
> open issue.

Maybe not HyperKitty. It is plain text only: no rich text, markdown, or embedded images.
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/-/issues/225

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

acwest
I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to forums that didn't support the mailing list format well


On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, 15:33 Doug Moen, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Finding an acceptable replacement for the current forum software is an
> open issue.

Maybe not HyperKitty. It is plain text only: no rich text, markdown, or embedded images.
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/-/issues/225

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

Vigardo
In reply to this post by Vigardo
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

Tim Hawkins
Please retain the mail list format, it requires the least effort to interact with. 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, 07:21 Vigardo <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

acwest
In reply to this post by Vigardo
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:21 PM Vigardo <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

tsingi
I follow mail lists because precisely because it is low effort.
Move this to a forum and I won't follow it.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM A. Craig West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:21 PM Vigardo <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

softfoot

I feel much the same, a mailing list is much easier to manage from my point of view.

Dave

On 22/01/2021 23:36, Rick wrote:
I follow mail lists because precisely because it is low effort.
Move this to a forum and I won't follow it.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM A. Craig West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:21 PM Vigardo <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

>From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

Mikael at UL
I’m on mailing lists since... 1986. They work.
Various web forums get in my way and most often go obsolete.
/mikael

------------------------------
Sent from a mobile device.

On 22 Jan 2021, at 23:54, [hidden email] wrote:


EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of the University of Limerick. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the content is safe.
 

I feel much the same, a mailing list is much easier to manage from my point of view.

Dave

On 22/01/2021 23:36, Rick wrote:
I follow mail lists because precisely because it is low effort.
Move this to a forum and I won't follow it.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM A. Craig West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:21 PM Vigardo <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, thanks for discussing this topic with me again :-). I´ve
checked the link to December´s thread that doug.moen pointed out and found
it very interesting. Please, let me comment here your contributions.

*doug.moen*

"About 2/3 of the participants use the mailing list, not the forum."

I´m sorry, but I disagree. I think this fact is does not fully validate that
the current Forum manager is the preferred option for 2/3 of the users. This
simply says that 2/3 of the users prefer one of the two alternatives for
such current (old) manager software. Perhaps if they tested a newer
alternative would change their preferences, don´t you think?

"Discourse can't meet this requirement, because the data model is wrong.
Every forum post needs to have a subject line, and conversations need to be
threaded based on the subject line. High quality mailing list integration
with Discourse is not possible."

If I understood you well, I would not say that the data model is wrong. In
all Forums I´ve used you need a subject topic and the replies must follow
that subject. I really do not understand why a mailing list is necessary.
Almost any modern Forum software also should provide digests to be aware
about what topics are trendy, and also can send you emails about new
messages in the threads you´ve participated.

*acwest*

"I have been on mailing lists that were entirely killed by migration to
forums that didn't support the mailing list format well"

This may be a good reason, but I don´t know why this should also apply here.
Past events do not guarantee future events. :-) I think that OpenSCAD is a
good free tool that is very attractive for makers, engineers and DIY people.

I want to remark here some extracts that best reflect my opinion from the
December thread about this topic

*tp3* and *MichaelAtOz* say that "Nabble might be dying any time. This was
announced some time ago, but did luckily not happen yet.". The former also
evidences that Discourse would be a good alternative...

Furthermore, I totally agree with *xgarb*. He exposed what I think is
another key motivation to change Forum manager software since I experienced
exactly the same frustration upon subscribing myself to this mailing list:

"My experience of joining this forum went something like this:
1) Read notice about joining three times, 2) Sign up to forum, 3) Confirm,
4) Sign up to Mail list
5) Confirm, 6) Read notice about joining again, 7) Send manual request, 8)
Go to bed
9) Wake up to 10 emails I'm not interested in, 10) See accepted message, 11)
Work, 12) Get more emails
13) Write my question, 14) See my question showing but with just urls for
the images
Discourse would be:
1) Create account or use social login, 2) Confirm, 3) Write question
(including pasting screen captures directly)"

>From the point of view of a potential OpenSCAD new user (which are necessary
to maintain a good health community), such an old Forum manager would make
him/her consider whether to join or not to join this forum since it gives
the impression that it may be discontinued very soon... I´m afraid that this
was exactly what I thought a few weeks ago when I joined. Fortunately, upon
a couple of posts I´ve realized that I was quite wrong and that this
community is very active and responsive (thanks all!).

Thanks again and sorry for the long post!



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

EXTERNAL EMAIL: This email originated from outside of the University of Limerick. Do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender's email address and know the content is safe.
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

CasaDelGato
In reply to this post by acwest
On Fri Jan 22 15:30:08 PST 2021 [hidden email] said:
>I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums
>require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A
>miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many
>things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

Exactly! There are some products that only use Forums.  I ONLY use the Forum to ask a specific question, and check occaisionally for answers. I do NOT bother to browse the Forum daily to see whats going on.  That wastes FAR too much time.
Email lists I can skim through very quickly, and reply to the occaisional post quickly.


--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

jon_bondy
In reply to this post by tsingi

I agree: without the email option, I would be gone.

Jon

On 1/22/2021 6:36 PM, Rick wrote:
I follow mail lists because precisely because it is low effort.
Move this to a forum and I won't follow it.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM A. Craig West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing


_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

OpenSCAD mailing list-2
I've been enjoying the email format since my sign-up day. I don't want to throw gasoline on the fire, especially since this next bit borders on obscure.

If one explores the world of RSS (Really Simple Syndication), one discovers that it begins at the forum level, but creates the near-equivalent of a mailing list. I have a few hundred subscriptions to RSS feeds and when I open that program, anything new appears for my evaluation. Mark as read (even if I don't) or read it. Open in a browser for replies (or not).

Nearly every platform has a handful of RSS feed readers, some of which are integrated into browsers or are stand-alone applications for desktop/laptop and mobile devices.

/returning to lurk mode/

On Friday, January 22, 2021, 7:00:33 PM EST, jon <[hidden email]> wrote:


I agree: without the email option, I would be gone.

Jon

On 1/22/2021 6:36 PM, Rick wrote:
I follow mail lists because precisely because it is low effort.
Move this to a forum and I won't follow it.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:31 PM A. Craig West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know I would be gone if the mailing list wasn't good enough. Forums require you to choose to go to the forum, choose a top to read, etc. A miasling list, you just read messages as they come in. I have way too many things I am following to put that much attention into any one thing

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by Vigardo
Rather than just saying "me too" and creating noise without really creating data, I threw together a quick SurveyMonkey survey.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/9MKZ2XY

It asks a few multiple choice questions and has an "other thoughts" box.  My guess is that it will take less than a minute to fill out.

It will still be a self-selected survey, and of course we can't survey people who don't follow the mailing list or the forum, but it still might provide some measurable statistics rather than just how many people say "me too".

If I've done things right, the current results should be visible at https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-LK6WQBX57/ .

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

doug.moen
More information about Discourse.

It is possible to use Discourse to create a read-only mirror of a mailing list.
<rubytalk.org> is a Discourse mirror of the ruby-talk mailing list.
Compared to <forum.openscad.org>, <rubytalk.org> is:
* Readonly. You must join the mailing list and use email to post.
* Registration is simpler (you only subscribe to the mailing list, you don't also have to register with the forum.)
* Nicer looking interface, continuous scrolling, more advanced search features.

How the mailing list maps to Discourse:
* The Discourse category "ruby-talk" is the mailing list.
* Topics within the category correspond to email subject lines.
* Posts within a topic correspond to mailing list posts.

It is possible to set up a readonly discourse mirror of the openscad mailing list without disturbing the existing infrastructure. That would be the first step in a migration away from Nabble.

It still seems impossible to set up a two-way link between a mailing list and a Discourse category. I found a discussion on Wikimedia Space where they discuss their *goal* of being able to emulate a mailing list using Discourse. Their plan would involve migrating all the old mailing list posts into Discourse and shutting down the mailing list. Quotes:

> Imagine a World where all public mailing archives would be searchable in Wikimedia space, and where anyone could follow and participate in each list-category via email or web, according to their preferences. Imagine how off-topic threads could be moved to an on-topic list-category. How posts could be tagged, bookmarked, liked… through the web interface.

> Email-based users shouldn’t miss any feature compared to our existing mailing lists. This is a hypothesis that needs testing, though.

I see they ran some experiments late 2018/early 2019 to try and configure Discourse to work this way, but then the initiative stalled and later the project was shut down.



_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

JordanBrown
In reply to this post by JordanBrown
On the IRC chat, user ali1234 notes that the OpenSCAD forum on Thingiverse has over 6000 members and the subreddit has 1500.

The Thingiverse group has about 30 posts in 2021.  (That's across three topics.)

It's harder to measure the reddit traffic (because it doesn't say at the top level when the most recent comment on a thread was), but it looks like there's in the neighborhood of 100 there.

My mailbox says that this mailing list has had 305 messages.

I have no idea how many members the mailing list and its associated forum have (Michael?), but it seems clear that it's far more active than either of the others.


_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

OpenSCAD mailing list-2

On 1/23/21 12:45 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
>
> I have no idea how many members the mailing list and its associated
> forum have (Michael?), but it seems clear that it's far more active
> than either of the others.
>
And it is also worth noting that this mailing list tends to involve a
more technical level than many who might be members at Thingiverse, etc.
will want/need.

I freely admit, I keep all my email for this topic in its own folder and
plan eventually to review each post/topic for the methods I am not (yet)
ready to try. I spend almost all my time lurking, while also usually
struggling to follow ALL the logic of the back and forth questions and
proposed answers.

I am very happy doing things the way I am, lurking, reading the "pushed"
posts (so I don't have to seek them out at the forum), trying out some
of the proposed code and occasionally adding my basic-user point of view
into the discussion.

I appreciate the expertise of those who DO routinely contribute
here...along with the typically helpful replies to those, like me, who
are less expert.


_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

Troberg
In reply to this post by Vigardo
I would prefer a forum. Many forums have mail notifications as an option, of
you want that.

Face it, mailing lists, while they do work, they aren't really modern, and,
most importantly, they don't feel modern. I can promise you that if I asked
my kids (26 and 24) what a mailing list is, they wouldn't know. When a new
potential user pops in to see what OpenSCAD is, if he/she doesn't understand
what a mailing list is, chances are that we've lost him/her before even
trying the program.

Also, realistically, who many active users do we have on the mailing list?
20? 50? We may very well be looking at survivor bias, ie a skewed result
because we are only asking the people who bothered to stay. Kind of like how
they in WW2 checked where the bullet holes were in aircraft after missions
to see which parts to harden with more armor, which, oddly enough were
non-vital parts, because they were checking the aircraft that got home, not
the ones that didn't make it home.



--
Sent from: http://forum.openscad.org/

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

doug.moen
In reply to this post by OpenSCAD mailing list-2
> And it is also worth noting that this mailing list tends to involve a
> more technical level than many who might be members at Thingiverse, etc.
> will want/need.

I suspect that the higher technical level of the mailing list is correlated with the list having a higher proportion of experienced old-timers who may be more comfortable with email.

Get rid of the mailing list and a swath of those old timers may disappear.

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Does OpenSCAD deserve a modern Forum platform?

doug.moen
In reply to this post by Troberg
This discussion thread, and the "modern forum" discussion thread from December, both began with a request to switch to Discourse. Some OpenSCAD users want a forum that "looks and feels modern", and while I don't know what that means, it seems that Discourse satisfies the requirement. So let's consider Discourse.

Somebody could create a Discourse forum with a read-write "General" category, plus a read-only "Mailing-List" category that is synced with the mailing list. This would satisfy the needs of two groups of people: those who won't use a mailing list, and those who won't use a forum. Mirroring the mailing list in Discourse provides a nicer web UI for browsing the archives than what we currently have.

Although this is a compromise, I feel it is better than getting rid of the mailing list, which is what some people are suggesting.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Troberg wrote:
> I would prefer a forum. Many forums have mail notifications as an option, of
> you want that.

I personally don't want that. The email notification feature is quite unpleasant on the forums that I've tried. Quite different from the user experience of a mailing list, which is what I want.

_______________________________________________
OpenSCAD mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.openscad.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_lists.openscad.org
123